Jim Williams Alesis hd24xr converter upgrade

[Mick@itc]

Hi
I am debating whether to get the AD/DA converters on the Alesis hd24xr upgraded by Jim Williams. Can anyone who has actually had this done comment or offer an opinion on the outcome?

Regards
Mick

[shortyprs]

I have an HD24XR with the mod done by Jim. The end quality of sound is very good. Stands up pretty damn close to my Lavry Blue converters. Compared to tracks recorded on Radar, I couldn't hear a difference in terms of clarity across the spectrum or the perception of depth...which are the things I've noticed most every time I've upgraded converters. But, it wasn't a very scientific comparison. I can say I'm very happy with it.

[Mick@itc]

Thanks shortypes, good feedback. I'm getting very close to to doing this.

Regards
Mick

PS...Jim's fax number is not his fax number anymore, if anyone is going to contact him use the landline number.

[axisdreamer]

How much does Jims mod cost?

[DRC]

I think Jim will just refer you to the EC-2 which is shipped with the HD24-XR. I think remember him saying he didnt think he could improve on those. I could be wrong. PM him and he can tell you.

[Mick@itc]

Originally Posted by axisdreamer

How much does Jims mod cost?

Best call Jim as there are different options that vary the price. Was talking to Jim this morning and he seems a nice reasonable guy. I'm certainly looking forward to getting the work done.

Regards
Mick

[Chris]

Originally Posted by DRC

I think Jim will just refer you to the EC-2 which is shipped with the HD24-XR. I think remember him saying he didnt think he could improve on those. I could be wrong. PM him and he can tell you.

That is actually about the HD24. He doesn't want to mod the HD24 because just upgrading to the EC-2 gets a better result.

However, for the HD24XR (which has the EC-2 already), he can mod them.

[guru007]

Originally Posted by shortyprs

I have an HD24XR with the mod done by Jim. The end quality of sound is very good. Stands up pretty damn close to my Lavry Blue converters. Compared to tracks recorded on Radar, I couldn't hear a difference in terms of clarity across the spectrum or the perception of depth...which are the things I've noticed most every time I've upgraded converters. But, it wasn't a very scientific comparison. I can say I'm very happy with it.

How are you clocking your HD24XR? I've read on the HD24 forum that it is highly suggested to use an external clock.
I'm a couple of weeks from getting my new HD24XR back from Jim, so I'd like to be prepared (I'm migrating from an Lynx/Apogee AD/DA combo to an HDSP9652/HD24XR setup).

Thanks,
guru007

[Mick@itc]

Originally Posted by guru007

How are you clocking your HD24XR? I've read on the HD24 forum that it is highly suggested to use an external clock.
I'm a couple of weeks from getting my new HD24XR back from Jim, so I'd like to be prepared (I'm migrating from an Lynx/Apogee AD/DA combo to an HDSP9652/HD24XR setup).

Thanks,
guru007

Yes I'm interested in the clocking too, I was thinking of running the woredclock from the RME 52 card??? Or is it worth investing in a bigben etc...
Mick

[shortyprs]

I've clocked the HD24 internally and from the Lavry Blue. At first, I thought I heard an improvement clocking off the Blue. But, when I experimented with going back to the internal clock, I couldn't hear a difference. I suspect there isn't any and I'm just playing head games.

[guru007]

Found this tidbit on the HD24 Forum:

"I ran into Mike Grace of Grace Designs today. We ended up discussing
the HD24XR and he said that when he got his, he did a bunch of tests
to find the best way to clock it. He found that the ADAT optical
input resulted in less jitter than the word clock input. Apparently,
the w/c input has way more jitter because it has a PLL circuit that
the optical circuit doesn't have. Internal clock is still the best,
although we all know that 44.1 is stable but not accurate."

So I'm going to try clocking the HDSP 9652, and thereby the HD24XR via the ADAT optical inputs, and see if that makes a difference. I would have preferred using the Lynx AES16 to take advantage of it's SynchroLock clocking scheme, but the Lynx and RME cards can't be used simultaneously...oh well.

guru007

[Mick@itc]

Great info Guru

[thermos]

FWIW, Jim said the clock in the HD24XR is great.

[Dragomir]

Hi,

I mix OTB. I found out that I can get most of the HD24 if, when the mix is finished, I bounce it to its internal hard drive and then play it back with the internal clock.

[Mick@itc]

Originally Posted by guru007

Found this tidbit on the HD24 Forum:

"I ran into Mike Grace of Grace Designs today. We ended up discussing
the HD24XR and he said that when he got his, he did a bunch of tests
to find the best way to clock it. He found that the ADAT optical
input resulted in less jitter than the word clock input. Apparently,
the w/c input has way more jitter because it has a PLL circuit that
the optical circuit doesn't have. Internal clock is still the best,
although we all know that 44.1 is stable but not accurate."

So I'm going to try clocking the HDSP 9652, and thereby the HD24XR via the ADAT optical inputs, and see if that makes a difference. I would have preferred using the Lynx AES16 to take advantage of it's SynchroLock clocking scheme, but the Lynx and RME cards can't be used simultaneously...oh well.

guru007

Guru
You run the Lynx and migrating to the RME??? Do you notice much of a difference?? I am about to buy the RME HDSP 9652 but was considering the Lynx. Any feedback?

Mick

[guru007]

I'll have some feedback once my HD24XR is back (just got a new one and sent it straight away to Jim Williams to modify).

I'm hoping the modded HD24XR will be a step up from my current convertors: Apogee DA16X + Lynx AES16 + LynxTwo-B (pair)

The Lynx cards sound and work great, but having been a user of the earlier Hammerfall version years ago, and from what I've researched so far, the RME HDSP 9652 seems the best way to get 24 ADAT I/O into and out of the HD24XR (Lynx allows 16 ADAT I/O via LS-ADAT daughter card).

Of course, I will still need several channels of AES I/O for use with my monitor controller's D/A as well as interfacing FX outboard as external inserts into the DAW. The HDSP AES-32 looks like the ticket for this and will coexist with the 9652 in the same DAW.

NOTE: One glaring void that's surfaced in all this research is the need for driver-level support for combining devices from more than one manufacturer (ex: pairing the RME HDSP 9652 with a Lynx AES16 or LynxTwo). I know there's a third-party ASIO driver that already does this, but the list of supported audio interfaces is still small and doesn't include high-end models from folks like RME and Lynx.

Fingers crossed.

guru007

[Chris Kress]

OK, now everybody raise your hand if you knew the word clock input on the HD24 was NOT terminated.. You have to use on a BNC-T connector with a 75 ohm terminator..

I had to hook up my big ben to figure it out (that is about all it is good for). The HD24 sounds much smaller without termination. It is not in the manual and I think tech support didn't know.. I hate when companies don't tell you prominently..

[artbeat77]

The manual for the hd24, in general, isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It is in serious need of revision with all of the ways people are incorporating the piece into their setups. It is my hope that they would recognize this and revise accordingly, if not promptly.

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by guru007

Found this tidbit on the HD24 Forum:

"I ran into Mike Grace of Grace Designs today. We ended up discussing
the HD24XR and he said that when he got his, he did a bunch of tests
to find the best way to clock it. He found that the ADAT optical
input resulted in less jitter than the word clock input. Apparently,
the w/c input has way more jitter because it has a PLL circuit that
the optical circuit doesn't have. Internal clock is still the best,
although we all know that 44.1 is stable but not accurate."
guru007

not to jump on the Grace band-wagon (though i have used and loved their
mic pres for nearly 10 years), i have to second that discovery. i either
clock internally or via lightpipe depending on the situation. i noticed
clocking via the word-clock from my Presonus mic pres didn't sound
as good as either clocking from the lightpipe input if in digital or
the internal clock if in analog input.

scary revelation about the lack of WC termination though...great info!
marty.

[joninc]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

OK, now everybody raise your hand if you knew the word clock input on the HD24 was NOT terminated.. You have to use on a BNC-T connector with a 75 ohm terminator..

can you elaborate on this? i have a HD24 hooked up to RME hammerfall card via lightpipe and clocked to the RME WC. i have used a regular (?) WC cable - what SHOULD i be doing?

is there a better way to configure my setup?

BTW i have been debating the EC-2 upgrade... i'd like to hear the soundstage open up a little more - wider. maybe selling my HD24 and going for a HD24XR is a better way to go ... open to opinions here.

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by joninc

is there a better way to configure my setup?

BTW i have been debating the EC-2 upgrade... i'd like to hear the soundstage open up a little more - wider. maybe selling my HD24 and going for a HD24XR is a better way to go ... open to opinions here.

I am getting prices on the Alesis EC2 update for the HD24 which makes it into an XR. I believe this makes it -exactly- the same as the XR model.. If so, this may be a cheaper and easier route..

So here is ther deal. Every word clock "in" connection must be terminated.. This is either provided through the unit with the "in" or by using a BNC-T connector with a 75 ohm terminator on it..


Reading this should help.. even though you don't have a big ben.
http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/app...ermination.pdf

[joninc]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

So here is ther deal. Every word clock "in" connection must be terminated.. This is either provided through the unit with the "in" or by using a BNC-T connector with a 75 ohm terminator on it..


Reading this should help.. even though you don't have a big ben.
http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/app...ermination.pdf

thanks for the reply - i took a look at the big ben article but i still don't understand:

it's designed to be a WC input only on the HD24 - so are you saying it comes with the wrong connection?

what bearing this different connector piece (the BNC "T"
connector and Termination Plug) has on the sound?

if you could explain a little further i'd really appreciate it. i use this as the path for all my audio (tracking and mixing) so if there is a way to get a better sound i want to know!!

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by joninc

thanks for the reply - i took a look at the big ben article but i still don't understand:

Follow these steps and you'll resolve this issue
1.) Get the parts shown in figure 1. (BNC-T, 75 ohm terminator)
2.) Connect them to the back of the Alesis like figure 2.
3.) Listen to verify that it sounds better.
4.) Call Alesis tech support and ask them to confirm that their unit does not supply word clock termination..

Problem solved...

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by artbeat77

The manual for the hd24, in general, isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It is in serious need of revision with all of the ways people are incorporating the piece into their setups. It is my hope that they would recognize this and revise accordingly, if not promptly.

Don't hold your breath. Alesis seems to have pretty much abandoned any development of the HD24, so you most likely won't see a new manual, any more upgrades (there hasn't been an operating system upgrade in years), and a fully featured remote. I wish it were otherwise, but from what I've seen of the Numark-controlled Alesis, they are more interested in marketing "Mr. Microphone" kind of products. It's truly a shame because the HD24 is the best bang-for-the-buck HD recorder currently available.

Cheers,
--
Don

[loujudson]

Termination question - would it be just as good to solder a 75 ohm resistor across the jack inside? I'd rather do that than have more adaptors hanging off the back. And yes, I have the skills to do it. Just wondering if it is a good idea.

And does Jim's mod add a terminator to it? Seems it should!

L

[artbeat77]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Don't hold your breath. Alesis seems to have pretty much abandoned any development of the HD24, so you most likely won't see a new manual, any more upgrades (there hasn't been an operating system upgrade in years), and a fully featured remote. I wish it were otherwise, but from what I've seen of the Numark-controlled Alesis, they are more interested in marketing "Mr. Microphone" kind of products. It's truly a shame because the HD24 is the best bang-for-the-buck HD recorder currently available.

Cheers,
--
Don

U speek da Troof.

[Mick@itc]

So lets pretend that I have a hot Jim modified HD24xl in my sweaty palms...

I plug my outboard pres into the inputs...say 9 to 16 and have audio streaming in through the converters and into the DAW via Lightpipe at say 48Khz. Now I want to listen to the main outputs of the DAW that I configure to ADAT lightppe outputs (say 23, 24) from the DAW into the input of the HD24, then through the same HD24 converters and the analog signal for these main outs will come out of the HD24 in analog output.......???

My assumption is that whatever digital (ADAT) input channel numbers I use, (say 23, 24, in this example) the corrisponding analog outputs (23,24) will have that signal in them????? Is it a one-to-one configuration???

Thansk Mick

[joninc]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

Follow these steps and you'll resolve this issue
1.) Get the parts shown in figure 1. (BNC-T, 75 ohm terminator)
2.) Connect them to the back of the Alesis like figure 2.
3.) Listen to verify that it sounds better.
4.) Call Alesis tech support and ask them to confirm that their unit does not supply word clock termination..

Problem solved...

ok - will do. but still can you explain WHY it will be an improvement and can you describe the sonic change once i do this?

[Mick@itc]

Originally Posted by Mick@itc

So lets pretend that I have a hot Jim modified HD24xl in my sweaty palms...

I plug my outboard pres into the inputs...say 9 to 16 and have audio streaming in through the converters and into the DAW via Lightpipe at say 48Khz. Now I want to listen to the main outputs of the DAW that I configure to ADAT lightppe outputs (say 23, 24) from the DAW into the input of the HD24, then through the same HD24 converters and the analog signal for these main outs will come out of the HD24 in analog output.......???

My assumption is that whatever digital (ADAT) input channel numbers I use, (say 23, 24, in this example) the corrisponding analog outputs (23,24) will have that signal in them????? Is it a one-to-one configuration???

Thanks Mick

Bump...????

[loujudson]

Both analog and digital outs are always hot.

so, yes.
L