Solo piano improv. recording - any comments...?

[Douglas Whates]

Hi,

I've attached a couple of mp3s for your listening pleasure. This forms part of an upcoming release on my record label and it'd be great to hear your comments. I don't want to say too much about the signal chain, but you're all welcome to a guess.

Looking forward to hearing what you all think...

Douglas.

[Recording David]

Douglas, I like this a lot. The playing is extremely accomplished - very original improvisational style. Is the whole album improvised?

Sounds like you used a pair of ribbons? Excellent imaging here and a very natural sound (nothing hyped) so I'd guess a Blumlein pair.

By the way, what reverb is that (or is it the sound of the recording location)? I like it.

[peeder]

Well done fella is this you playing? A bit of Herbie, a bit of Chick, a bit of DSCH...

But you can't post on this site and not tell us the details of the signal chain!

(I used to play improvisational piano in Scotland too! )

[Koed]

Sounds great. Stereo image a bit too wide for my taste, and I prefer reversed, since I'm a player myself.

If this is a plugin, I'm buying!

[dementedchord]

nice man... screw the coyness... whats the chain??? what kinda instrument???

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Douglas, I like this a lot. The playing is extremely accomplished - very original improvisational style. Is the whole album improvised?

Yes, the whole album is improvised. With the exception of Loch Lomond, everything is also a spontaneous composition - i.e. there were no pre-composed motifs, forms etc.

Originally Posted by Recording David

Sounds like you used a pair of ribbons? Excellent imaging here and a very natural sound (nothing hyped) so I'd guess a Blumlein pair.

Yes - spot on. One of the main reasons I love using a blumlein pair is that is seems to give the spaciousness of A/B omnis without the fuzzy imaging (and sometimes phasey artefacts).

By the way, what reverb is that (or is it the sound of the recording location)? I like it.

Nothing added to the original source, except EQ.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by peeder

Well done fella is this you playing? A bit of Herbie, a bit of Chick, a bit of DSCH...

No, it's not me. I merely recorded it.

(I used to play improvisational piano in Scotland too! )

Yeah - what sort of stuff? Where abouts?

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Koed

Sounds great. Stereo image a bit too wide for my taste, and I prefer reversed, since I'm a player myself.

Yes, some people find it strange having the high notes on the left and the low on the right, but given the choice, I almost always opt for audience/listener perspective.

If this is a plugin, I'm buying!

Nope, just good old fashioned real world acoustic reverb.

[John Brook]

Great job, Douglas; here are my questions:

Mike model and location for recording _____

Signal chain ______

Piano model _______

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by John Brook

Great job, Douglas; here are my questions:

Mike model and location for recording _____

Signal chain ______

Piano model _______

Steinway D -> Coles 4040 Blumlein pair -> Millennia HV-3C -> Lavry M.AD-824 -> DAW ( Lynx AES16 & Samplitude 9)

Recorded at the Recital Room in Glasgow's newly refurbished City Halls.

You can get an idea of the space and mic placement here: Natural Studio Records: Two days of spontaneous composition

I experimented a great deal with mic placement and also tried out various Schoeps pairs (MK4, MK2 and MK21), but the Coles 4040 in Blumlein won out in the end. We both agreed that, although a wide MK2 pair was very good (and very similar in sound to the 4040s), the Coles had that extra je ne sais quoi.

Douglas.

[John Brook]

Thanks, Douglas. I see the Steinway is a Hamburg model. Makes a big difference!

Can anyone comment on how close in sound the Coles 4040 is to the Royer (or vice versa!). Thanks.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by John Brook

Thanks, Douglas. I see the Steinway is a Hamburg model. Makes a big difference!

No, as far as I'm aware it's a New York Steinway. All I know is that this is one of the best sounding Steinways I've heard (the pianist agreed).

EDIT: No - you're right. I just had a closer look at the photos - it's a matt finish Hamburg.

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

Steinway D -> Coles 4040 Blumlein pair -> Millennia HV-3C -> Lavry M.AD-824 -> DAW ( Lynx AES16 & Samplitude 9)

Recorded at the Recital Room in Glasgow's newly refurbished City Halls.

Wow. I need the same chain. I need those Coles. No wait, I need that Steinway. Damned wait, I need that room!! (No wait, I got to be that player -- oh sh**t)

Well done!

[Dzoing]

BTW I'd love to hear the schoeps recording side by side the the coles...

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

BTW I'd love to hear the schoeps recording side by side the the coles...

Your wish is my command...

One is the MK2 pair, the other the Blumlein Coles. Remarkable how similar they sound, given that one is a SDC spaced pair, the other a Blumlein ribbon pair!

Can you guess which is which?

Douglas.

P.S. In both cases, this is the raw, unprocessed sound as it went into the DAW.

[pkautzsch]

Wonderful sound, wonderful playing.
As to stereo image, though: what exactly *is* audience perspective. Most audiences I've seen are not at the tail end, but at the treble side of the piano. So they see the player left, and they don't hear the high notes from one side and the low notes from the other. Recorded sound, however, often seems to be best at the tail end position.
How far away were the mics?

[pkautzsch]

Oh, and I think A is the omnis.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Wonderful sound, wonderful playing.
As to stereo image, though: what exactly *is* audience perspective. Most audiences I've seen are not at the tail end, but at the treble side of the piano. So they see the player left, and they don't hear the high notes from one side and the low notes from the other. Recorded sound, however, often seems to be best at the tail end position.

RE: audience perspective - I know what you're saying. If you're sitting a few rows back, you're not going to hear high notes from one side and low from the other. But, listening at the crook of the piano (slightly angled towards the hammers), this high/low left/right difference is discernable - partly due where the hammers strike, partly due to where the energy lies on the soundboard. Also, any sounds from the pianist (breathing, vocalising etc.) will come from the left. If it came from the right, I'd find that a bit odd.

Anyway, glad you like the sound and performances - that's the most important thing!

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

How far away were the mics?

Can't remember specifically, and it's a bit hard to make out from the photos I took. Maybe 6 or 7 feet up and about the same back.

[John Brook]

Many years ago, I read somewhere that it's important not to get reflections off the lid which have distructive interference with the direct wave off the sound board. With the mikes that high, you obviously avoided that problem!

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

Your wish is my command...

One is the MK2 pair, the other the Blumlein Coles. Remarkable how similar they sound, given that one is a SDC spaced pair, the other a Blumlein ribbon pair!

Can you guess which is which?

Douglas.

P.S. In both cases, this is the raw, unprocessed sound as it went into the DAW.

I guess A is the Coles, B being the schoeps omni. B is brighter with a bit more room. (listening through some veeery small and crappy computer speakers). Anyway there is a little bit to much room in both track to my taste. B sounds better to me but A is warmer / more pleasant in an old school maneer...

Which is which?

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

I guess A is the Coles, B being the schoeps omni. B is brighter with a bit more room. (listening through some veeery small and crappy computer speakers). Anyway there is a little bit to much room in both track to my taste. But A sounds better to me (old school)...

I might add to my last post a reason why I think A is the Schoeps (listening on crappy consumer headphones): the bass response to me is more linear which is typical of pressure transducers; and I think I hear some decorrelation typical of spaced setups.

Some more votes please, I can't wait much longer for the solution

[David Spearritt]

Seems to me, A = Omnis, B= Coles, imaging is quite different. Although the tonal similarities are remarkable. Thanks for the comparison, very informative.

[Douglas Whates]

A is the spaced omnis, B is the Blumlein ribbon.

For me, it was similar enough to choose the Ribbons - I'm a stickler for precise imaging and the Coles have the edge. If this was more classical repertoire, I would have been inclined to choose the omnis - there was a bit more blending of sound. But for this recording (and particularly the player's attention to voicing and contrapuntal lines), the Coles made sense.

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

... though the tonal similarities are remarkable ...

Yes - I was also surprised, in a good way. Ribbons don't necessarily mean "old school" and SDC condensers don't necessarily mean "more accurate/clean".