Concerts becoming like LOUD bad mastered CD

[carlheinz]

Concert sound seems to be getting more like a cheap boom box at 150 db.The philosophy goes something like this.."if its really loud,no one will notice how crappy it sounds".

Clipping P.A..Harsh distortion from too much bass eating into the headroom.

There is an art to mix so it sounds powerful but not maxxed out.I pay good money to see a show in a good seat but the dork running the board thinks that louder=better so song by song it builds up and you cant hear anything and then it's earplug time.This was the case for a Canadian rock trio who's been at it for 30+years and can afford to have amazing concert sound.I also think it has something to do with new digital mixers and how they have no headroom when put against a Gamble or a yamaha PM-3k or 4k or whatever.The digital craps out after a certain point and it's too late to back down or it sounds weird.

[kingofthecrate]

well my only reply to this guy is he must be getting old.


first off theyre running clair bros pa and id be a fool if that isnt one of the best p.a.'s in town. they use prism cabinets with theyre own custom crossovers and most of the time they run the d show boards with custom pre's so i doubt theyre clipping they system.. the converters would crap out before that system would even distort.


and besides most of rush's shows were ran outdor and the wnt run it past 104db

[PoorGlory]

Concerts have always been loud as balls.

The analogy comparing concert volume to crushed mastering doesn't hold up. Apples and oranges.

[jabney]

"...so song by song it builds up and you cant hear anything and then it's earplug time."

Blame the set-list. If the band is unwilling to drop back down in level in the middle of a show to allow a new build in intensity, the person mixing can't force them to do so.

It can also be due to musical arrangements. Consider a song that has four iterations of the chorus, and the singer changes key or jumps an octave on the last time through. That jump may be so exciting that the song becomes a hit Go forward a few years and you can almost guarantee that the singer will start jumping no later than the second time she sings the chorus :-) If that starts happening on all the songs, there go the dynamics for the evening.

best,

john

[carlheinz]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

well my only reply to this guy is he must be getting old.


first off theyre running clair bros pa and id be a fool if that isnt one of the best p.a.'s in town. they use prism cabinets with theyre own custom crossovers and most of the time they run the d show boards with custom pre's so i doubt theyre clipping they system.. the converters would crap out before that system would even distort.


and besides most of rush's shows were ran outdor and the wnt run it past 104db

Thanks for your condescending reply.The"getting old" comment was a real stretch.Ha Ha.I'm laughing so much my ribs hurt.Easy target practice for sure.Original too.Those"Pro Sound News"articles paid off and you are very proud to be"in the know"and it shows with all those tour crew passes chalked up on your Anvil brief case.How long was your pony tail before you cut it off into the 10/90 it is now?.I'd be proud of that too.I salute you and you are so very right about the gear.Sure the gear is top notch.I won't argue that.There are are plenty of shows that are loud and sound great and are mixed digitally.I'm just saying...at this one show .... about a 1/4 of the way into the show,it got louder and something was distorting in a square wave clipping kind of way.It could have been anything....i.e.... Someone who wasn't so smart bumped into the Smart limiter while doing a bump and said"sounds rad dude".The problem is really my age.Funny.I didn't think of that...Problem solved!...I'll drink more beer at the show next time.Thank you Mr Sound guy.Don't forget batteries for your DB meter.

[LewisWu]

... the cheap shot probably came from the FOH engineer... seeing as how he was at the concert you were talking about... and knows that he set everything correctly...

its like interface and software manufacturers who swear that its a problem with the other guy... when the issue is, in reality, a combination of issues compounded by an id.10t error

its important to wear hearing protection at concerts.. I don't trust the drunk guy enough to keep from yelling into my ear, because he thinks that because he can't hear what he's saying, that I can't either...

[carlheinz]

No biggie.King of the crate knows his stuff.He was trying to stir the pot.That was my cheap comeback.All in good fun here @ Gearsluts.Sorry if I over reacted.I meant nothing by what I said and I was joking around.He has his fun.I had mine.

I think if the output level of a C.D. distorts the playback electronics of my stereo like certain passages of the Foofighters"one be one" c.d. or Rush's"Vaportrails"(and there are articles about that one)...it's not an apples and oranges argument to me.An op amp or something is producing square wave clipping....NOT CONSTANTLY but in certain passages.I thought it was worth moaning about.I might need a new home stereo.The sound at this show regressed from loud/clear to louder and smear.I moaned.Kill me now!Take my pain away!ha.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by carlheinz

Thanks for your condescending reply.The"getting old" comment was a real stretch.Ha Ha.I'm laughing so much my ribs hurt.Easy target practice for sure.Original too.Those"Pro Sound News"articles paid off and you are very proud to be"in the know"and it shows with all those tour crew passes chalked up on your Anvil brief case.How long was your pony tail before you cut it off into the 10/90 it is now?.I'd be proud of that too.I salute you and you are so very right about the gear.Sure the gear is top notch.I won't argue that.There are are plenty of shows that are loud and sound great and are mixed digitally.I'm just saying...at this one show .... about a 1/4 of the way into the show,it got louder and something was distorting in a square wave clipping kind of way.It could have been anything....i.e.... Someone who wasn't so smart bumped into the Smart limiter while doing a bump and said"sounds rad dude".The problem is really my age.Funny.I didn't think of that...Problem solved!...I'll drink more beer at the show next time.Thank you Mr Sound guy.Don't forget batteries for your DB meter.

hahahahhaha that was a funny comeback.. im 29 so I never had the opportunity to rock the pony tail. Ive worked for showco sound before they merged with clair so Im familiar with theyre systems and I KNOW that they were using clair audio for the rush tour atleast the snakes and arrows tour.


but yes.. drink more beer..



theyre are bands and then theyre is rush

[carlheinz]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

hahahahhaha that was a funny comeback.. im 29 so I never had the opportunity to rock the pony tail. Ive worked for showco sound before they merged with clair so Im familiar with theyre systems and I KNOW that they were using clair audio for the rush tour atleast the snakes and arrows tour.


but yes.. drink more beer..



theyre are bands and then theyre is rush

YOU ROCK!

[MixinMonkey]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Ive worked for showco sound before they merged with clair so Im familiar with theyre systems and I KNOW that they were using clair audio for the rush tour atleast the snakes and arrows tour.

When I first saw this thread titled: "Concerts becoming like LOUD bad mastered C.D."..
The 1st thought in my head was ALSO the band Rush.
Imagine my surprise when I read that it actually is about Rush.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Rush.. but even with Clair bros, custom crossovers, yadda yadda.. My EARS told me that Rush's shows are simply too distorted/crunchy/loud.. period.
I go to other shows and it's just not the same..

Y'now, perhaps this isn't Clair bros fault..
When I was listening to "Rush in Rio", I couldn't believe how much of a distorted mess it was.. it was horrible, and that was audio that went to the truck... so who knows where the problem lies.
I understand that issues happen with live sound and that it's never a perfect situation on these stages, but I was bummed when I saw Rush in concert.. the trio plays amazing as usual, but something in the chain is surprisingly too loud and toppled over.
I don't care HOW, it just is.

[carlheinz]

Originally Posted by MixinMonkey

When I first saw this thread titled: "Concerts becoming like LOUD bad mastered C.D."..
The 1st thought in my head was ALSO the band Rush.
Imagine my surprise when I read that it actually is about Rush.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Rush.. but even with Clair bros, custom crossovers, yadda yadda.. My EARS told me that Rush's shows are simply too distorted/crunchy/loud.. period.
I go to other shows and it's just not the same..

Y'now, perhaps this isn't Clair bros fault..
When I was listening to "Rush in Rio", I couldn't believe how much of a distorted mess it was.. it was horrible, and that was audio that went to the truck... so who knows where the problem lies.
I understand that issues happen with live sound and that it's never a perfect situation on these stages, but I was bummed when I saw Rush in concert.. the trio plays amazing as usual, but something in the chain is surprisingly too loud and toppled over.
I don't care HOW, it just is.

AHHH....thank you.I'm not totally alone.QUESTION....Is it those palmer speaker emulators on the guitar amps?You know they don't mic the 4x12 cabs anymore or the bass gtr anymore.Bass gtr's can get away with this as they are monophonic and it is a less complex signal compaired to a distorted guitar playing Rush chords with chorus fx and so on.I bet that is a contributing factor.Who knows.

[manofsong]

Just saw the Rush concert in Toronto -- there was nothing odd about the sound, in fact it was a pretty darn clean mix. However, it was indeed loud enough for me at one point to put the earplugs in for the remainder of the concert, which is also not an unusual move to protect my investment.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by MixinMonkey

Y'now, perhaps this isn't Clair bros fault..
When I was listening to "Rush in Rio", I couldn't believe how much of a distorted mess it was.. it was horrible, and that was audio that went to the truck... so who knows where the problem lies.
I understand that issues happen with live sound and that it's never a perfect situation on these stages, but I was bummed when I saw Rush in concert.. the trio plays amazing as usual, but something in the chain is surprisingly too loud and toppled over.
I don't care HOW, it just is.

well in reference to rush in rio.. yes I agree that dvd sounds like ass.. but that was because they had problems with the audio because of a storm the day they shot that..

and in reference to the R30 DVD the set list was cut majorly to audio problems..


none the less.. who ****ing knows... i missed the snakes and arrows tour being out with justin timberlake.. now thats great ****in sound right there..


I LOVE RUSH

[musikwerks]

This is an interesting thought.

People have long said that music production started going south when Pro Tools arrived, digital, plug ins etc, etc.

Now Digidesign has entered the live sound arena and you can run all your favourite plugs live in concert..... coincidence?

Or it could just be that the guy mixing has been doing it too long and can't tell it's too loud.

[carlheinz]

I think it's more to do with what the band and the F.O.H. guy is trying to achieve.I don't know if this analogy works.People who go to action/adventure movies EXPECT the sound fx to have a perceived impact.That said,films in that genre are all mixed with a certain criteria and all sound more or less exactly the same.Same booms,sub lows..crash bang etc and LOUD.The typical"Modern rock"recording and shows are suffering a similar fate due to the need to meet the public expectation of sounding like the current multi quasi compressed c.d audio we hear within a typical day.Not all shows are like this but certainly a few.Hopefully I'm not too out on a limb in saying that.

[nobasil]

For a long time I thought that live concerts could not sound good. Especially festival-sized. It seemed inescapable. Eventually I came across some that sounded great and after working in the field...well, I just never assume anymore that I know better.

The sound at concerts is the combination of all of the seperate parties' demands plus the conditions of the space. You really never know what kind of crazy shit the engineer is dealing with in terms of equipment and personel. Of course, the best way would be to educate everyone on why it would actually be a better concert without pushing all of the equipment until it distorts and the room modes are displacing brain fluid, but the best I often can manage is a compromise between what the artist, the producer, the venue owner, and the public want.

The job is stressful enough as it is without giving into infighting. In most cases I just give in, put my earplugs in, and do what people ask me to.

Once a friend of mine was at an "experimental electronic" concert and pulled the plug cause he thought it was too loud and damaging everyone's hearing. Oh yeah, he was drunk.

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by carlheinz

AHHH....thank you.I'm not totally alone.QUESTION....Is it those palmer speaker emulators on the guitar amps?You know they don't mic the 4x12 cabs anymore or the bass gtr anymore.Bass gtr's can get away with this as they are monophonic and it is a less complex signal compaired to a distorted guitar playing Rush chords with chorus fx and so on.I bet that is a contributing factor.Who knows.

actually, i can't complain about those palmer di's. i was at a norma jean show last year and they had those on both guitars w/ 409's as backups, but all direct signal was used and it was probably the most solid hard rock guitars i've heard live. i mean they really sounded great.
can't remember the guy's name, but their foh engineer is pretty good too, though.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by nobasil

Once a friend of mine was at an "experimental electronic" concert and pulled the plug cause he thought it was too loud and damaging everyone's hearing. Oh yeah, he was drunk.

Maybe thats why sharon osborne pulled the plug on iron maidens p.a. while performing at ozzfest 06.


oh thats right.. shes just a crazy bitch


dfegad SHARON OSBORNE tutt

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

i missed the snakes and arrows tour being out with justin timberlake.. now thats great ****in sound right there..

tutttutt

Not from what I heard on the live HBO concert.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Robobo1

tutttutt

Not from what I heard on the live HBO concert.

Im talking about the live mix.. not some audio truck that some knuckle head was mixing on outside the venue

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Im talking about the live mix.. not some audio truck that some knuckle head was mixing on outside the venue

Agreed... my apologies.

[Cut It Live]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Im talking about the live mix.. not some audio truck that some knuckle head was mixing on outside the venue

As one of those "Knuckle Heads" that mix in the remote truck outside the venue, I have to defend my fellow "Knuckle Head" remote truck brothers who record high profile bands time after time only to experience distorted signals, out phase lines, single ended splitter channels, inaccurate input lists and often laughable mic technique. It's the FOH guys like J.D. Brill, Dave Morgan and Greg Price that are great to work with. One because of their knowledge and experience and two because they realize we're all working for the artist. The FOH guy may have 100 shows to get it right...the "Knuckle Head" guy mixing in the truck has ....one and that's after getting only a three song sound check if any. We don't have the luxury of thousands of watts a large P.A. with heart rumbleing subs and a half crocked audience. We have to make the energy of that show translate to speakers sometimes the size of a quarter. I have a few shows under my belt and from my experience I can say there are some "Knuckle Head" FOH guys out there also.

During a recent sound check with a currently highly successful artist recording a show for a webcast, I noticed the overheads sounded REALLY funky and distorted. I went to the stage and noticed the FOH guy had placed the mics about 6 inches away facing the edge of the cymbals and one being really close to a China cymbal. It sounded so bad it was comical. But to be politically correct I asked the "mixer" to come in the truck and take a listen to the distortion and fluttering etc. I had him sit at the console. I hit playback and this horrendous sound comes from the solo bus on the overhead tracks. The mixer reaches up and pulls down the little fader that sends level to tape and is not even in the playback chain....He looks back at me and says...."Is that better"? I was speechless.

"Knuckle Head" truck mixer says to his stage tech...I seemed to have lost the guitar line. Stage tech asks the monitor guy and gets a reply with attitude included....."We've got it in monitors"...All of a sudden two songs later, my stage tech says to me.... "Monitors don't have it either".

[Remoteness]

Hey, wait a minute, I'm one of those Knuckleheads too!
You can call me "Knuckles."

Thank you for that excellent response Scott!

I totally feel you on this one.
Believe it or not, every story you told also happened to us.

And, that's how it goes (in our world) I'm afraid.

[Cut It Live]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Hey, wait a minute, I'm one of those Knuckleheads too!
You can call me "Knuckles."

Thank you for that excellent response Scott!

I totally feel you on this one.
Believe it or not, every story you told also happened to us.

And, that's how it goes (in our world) I'm afraid.

Thanks "Knuckles" ...and BTW, my hat goes off to you, Kooster, Steve Remote, David Hewitt, Randy Ezratty, their crews and anyone who works on remotes in NYC. I grew up in Northern NY and don't envy you dealing with the snow and the traffic in the city. Those cables can get pretty stiff.

CHEERS!

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Cut It Live

As one of those "Knuckle Heads" that mix in the remote truck outside the venue, I have to defend my fellow "Knuckle Head" remote truck brothers who record high profile bands time after time only to experience distorted signals, out phase lines, single ended splitter channels, inaccurate input lists and often laughable mic technique..

So are you stating that becase the recording of the HBO broadcast was a FOH feed problem or patching problem and none of the mobile truck..

Wow I sense a bit of hostillity here. Why does every "dept" blame everyone else. nobody accepts any responsibillity for anything.. Oh my PA is ****ed.. stupid stage hands.. my lights are shorting out.. stupid power guys.. bla bla bla


maybe if you toook initiative and spent 5 min chatting with the FOH guy and build some type of proffesional relationhip with them. there wouldnt be such a communication conflict.


Im not sure about anyone else's technique here. but they line check and sound check that show HOURS before doors. I wouldnt put my name on anything that sounded like shit and made sure that I had my feed corrected before I hit the record button.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Cut It Live

The FOH guy may have 100 shows to get it right...the "Knuckle Head" guy mixing in the truck has ....one and that's after getting only a three song sound check if any. .

and to defend my live guys here,

thats a 100 times to tune the pa to fill shitty acoustically treated arenas.. thats a 100 times we have to pack over 100 feet of cable.. the over a 100 times of building pa stacks. over 100 times I personaly had to build wedges to keep sub boxs from being tippy

all when you guys get to roll out a feeder and drive away at the end of the night

it sucks on both ends pal..


TRUST ME

[Cut It Live]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

and to defend my live guys here,

thats a 100 times to tune the pa to fill shitty acoustically treated arenas.. thats a 100 times we have to pack over 100 feet of cable.. the over a 100 times of building pa stacks. over 100 times I personaly had to build wedges to keep sub boxs from being tippy

all when you guys get to roll out a feeder and drive away at the end of the night

it sucks on both ends pal..


TRUST ME

I have a lot of respect for the crews I have worked with and I have worked some awesome crews. There is no "You Guys" with the great crews. It's a team effort....whether it's the Rolling Stones or a club crew in Hollywood. It's about the attitude and work ethic. I started out doing live sound and have wrapped plenty of snakes and packed many cables trunks in the last 20 years of my carreer as have many of the remote truck guys. I have stacked P.A. did the show, packed the truck driven to another city only to set up with no sleep. Been there. I know how hard the work is. I took my experience and moved on. Hopefully you will have the same opportunity. No need to be bitter. Love it or leave it.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Cut It Live

No need to be bitter. Love it or leave it.

You are 100% correct.


like my old boss used to say, "Hey, Its Tough All Over Bud"

[Remoteness]

I cannot speak for Scott, but my perception is as follows.

IMO, calling remote recording engineers "Knuckleheads" on a Remote Recording forum is a bit of a hostile approach.

When he talked about his experiences with distorted signals, out phase lines, single ended splitter channels, inaccurate input lists and laughable mic techniques, I believe he was not referring to the HBO special, but about the state of affairs for us remote and location recording engineers. I have experienced every one of the situations he described. I can see how attractive it is to connect his statement to your point of view about the HBO special, but that (IMHO) is not where he was coming from. I believe he was defending the many remote recording engineers that frequent this forum. And, I stand with him on this one.

I mean, he never directly stated that the HBO broadcast was a FOH feed or patching problem. Unless he recorded the event or knew what happened, I do not see the logic in that declaration. Where did you get that information from? It clearly was not stated in this thread.

Calling professionals offensive names then saying, “you sense a bit of hostility” when one of them defends his position is IMO out of line. We can discuss all sorts of things without offending anyone… Can’t we?

I have seen plenty of departments (that seem to) blame everyone else, but this is not the case here. He was stating the facts of life in the remote recording work place and I empathize with every word he wrote about it. These issues have happened and been addressed by many of us.

Again, I cannot speak for Scott, but I can tell you that one of the most important thing to do with regard to a live performance recording is to take the initiative and communicate the production manager, FOH and MON engineers and anyone else that is applicable to the production at hand. I have a sticky up on this forum called Five components to a successful location recording & much more (The Beginners Guide) that addresses this.

With that said, you still will meet all sorts of folks out there -- The good, the bad and the ugly. Communication is a relative term. You need at least two to communicate.
If someone is not listening or has another mindset all together the connection is lost and there’s nothing you can do about it.

I don’t know how many remote dates you have worked on, but sometimes you have no control over what happens when your feed leaves the truck. All sorts of things can happen. I’m sure many of us can fill another thread quite nicely with plenty to say about this matter. You can “scratch and sniff” all the lines three times over; sound check for hours days before the doors open and you still cannot control what’s happening to your feed down stream. Well, do diligence is key here. We can ask for a return feed to monitor for our confidence, but that still doesn’t tell the entire story. We can do our best by having people monitor and address the various issues that may come about down the line, but how do you tackle every problem? You cannot!
We must trust, but verify each and every concern as it comes along. IMO, you’re only as good as the people and organizations you surround yourself with.

Heads up:
I click on your MySpace link and noticed that it’s an Invalid Friend ID. Did you cancel your membership, or did your account get deleted?

All the best!

[Cut It Live]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

So are you stating that becase the recording of the HBO broadcast was a FOH feed problem or patching problem and none of the mobile truck..

Wow I sense a bit of hostillity here. Why does every "dept" blame everyone else. nobody accepts any responsibillity for anything.. Oh my PA is ****ed.. stupid stage hands.. my lights are shorting out.. stupid power guys.. bla bla bla


maybe if you toook initiative and spent 5 min chatting with the FOH guy and build some type of proffesional relationhip with them. there wouldnt be such a communication conflict.


Im not sure about anyone else's technique here. but they line check and sound check that show HOURS before doors. I wouldnt put my name on anything that sounded like shit and made sure that I had my feed corrected before I hit the record button.

I didn't happen to see the HBO special or hear anything about it. It takes a lot of work to get those shows to air. I have a lot of respect for anyone involved in it. You make a great point. Communication is key. I always try to get a hold of the FOH or monitor tech before we arrive. Most are very helpul with stage plots, layouts, notes and cues. Especially when a band sends the roadies to do the sound check and the play Free Bird or a bad rendition of a Van Halen song. I have quite a few friends that are FOH, monitor and systems guys and have a great respect for them. What I don't like to waste time with, and I'm sure you will agree is incompetence and bad attitudes.
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At the end of the day if it wasn't fun, it wasn't really worth it.