Concerts becoming like LOUD bad mastered CD

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Cut It Live

I didn't happen to see the HBO special or hear anything about it. It takes a lot of work to get those shows to air. I have a lot of respect for anyone involved in it. You make a great point. Communication is key. I always try to get a hold of the FOH or monitor tech before we arrive. Most are very helpul with stage plots, layouts, notes and cues. Especially when a band sends the roadies to do the sound check and the play Free Bird or a bad rendition of a Van Halen song. I have quite a few friends that are FOH, monitor and systems guys and have a great respect for them. What I don't have time for and I'm sure you will agree is incompetence and bad attitudes.
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At the end of the day if it wasn't fun, it wasn't really worth it.

I hear you loud and clear and concur.

Communication is everything and we as remotesters must do everything in our power to connect and communicate with FOH & MON engineers et al even if they think we're a bunch of knuckleheads.

[justpushplay]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

This is an interesting thought.

People have long said that music production started going south when Pro Tools arrived, digital, plug ins etc, etc.

Now Digidesign has entered the live sound arena and you can run all your favourite plugs live in concert..... coincidence?

Nope. Not a coicidence. It's not a 'Pro Tools sound' thing. It's a gain structure thing. Well, that and the fact that Pro Tools democratized the whole thing and now we have people touching faders and producing records that would never be allowed in the building before. THAT'S why it went south. But I digress. :-)

I've got PT HD, often mix ITB, and I also drive a Digi Venue for live stuff. If you crush the mix bus on either one, well, you asked for it. You now sound like that Ricky Martin song. Treat the mix bus with respect, well, you WON'T sound like that Ricky Martin song. Gain structure on the Venue rig was interesting, first off because I had been on PT for years, and grocked that. But for live, I was coming off a Paragon console, and it actaually states in the Paragon manual that it likes to see RED on the meters. So I acted accordingly :-) And it rocked. Then, along comes the new Digi Venue console in my life, and I treated it like the Paragon. Oops. Ricky Martin all over again. Just like my early ITB PT mixes before I sussed that out. Uh, get the gain you need to drive the PA out of the matrix, not the mix buss.

So give everyone a chance to come to terms with the whole new 'digital thingy mabobber that just cleaned the brake dust off my wheels and loaded the truck with proper pack and got me a Grammy aint needin no gain structure Bob Nichols Roger Clearmountain SSL Neve Berhinger quad core u47 emulation if you use this you'll have a hit with absolutely no ****ing talent auto tune plug-in'.

Gawd, I'm an asshole :-)

[StueTheClue]

Originally Posted by carlheinz

Concert sound seems to be getting more like a cheap boom box at 150 db.The philosophy goes something like this.."if its really loud,no one will notice how crappy it sounds".

Clipping P.A..Harsh distortion from too much bass eating into the headroom.

There is an art to mix so it sounds powerful but not maxxed out.I pay good money to see a show in a good seat but the dork running the board thinks that louder=better so song by song it builds up and you cant hear anything and then it's earplug time.This was the case for a Canadian rock trio who's been at it for 30+years and can afford to have amazing concert sound.I also think it has something to do with new digital mixers and how they have no headroom when put against a Gamble or a yamaha PM-3k or 4k or whatever.The digital craps out after a certain point and it's too late to back down or it sounds weird.

I fully agree with Carl and "MixinMonkey"...I saw RUSH in GLOBEN in Stockholm, 1994 and the sound was too loud; distorted treble...I have listened to RUSH since 1975 but I was very disappointed with that concert.

[tourtelot]

Pretty funny that it's always "The Other Guy's" problem when there is something wrong with any sound project. Guess that is the way it was, is and always will be.

I did my days at CBA and I heard and mixed some wonderful shows. Bruce Jackson and Bruce Springsteen at Madison Square (the worst sounding venue ever!) Garden. Awesome. Great band, great mixer, great gear. And I don't even like Springsteen. Almost went to see Wendy O and the Plasmatics instead at Irving Place It was always my fault when the act overplayed the stage monitors.

Worked on the Record Plant Black Truck and it was alway the PA guys who f'ed us up. When I was a PA guy, the remote guys always f'ed us up. Now that I am a film sound guy, post blames me, I blame post (and the locations department.)

Well, not really because I don't really give a rat's ass any more. I go out there and do the best I can on the day and go home and drink my beer. It's not personal and if it becomes so, f'em. Okay, enough edited f-words

But I'm also saying that I have heard some really bad shows mixed on some really good gear by some really well respected guys. It still sounded bad and I put my plugs in or leave, depending.

D.

[tourtelot]

Oh and Kingofthecrate Clair guy. Say "hi" to my good friend Bob Weibold. He and I did an absolutely horrible (and it was NOT the band's fault) Renaissance tour way back when. Oh my!

Saw his picture in Mix the other day and he looks exactly the same, only greyer

D.

[Remoteness]

I mix really bad shows on really great gear....

Or is it, I mix really great shows on really bad gear?

Some days, it's really hard to say;-)

[tourtelot]

For me at least, the gear is rarely the problem Some days, the bear eats you.

D.

[Andy Hamm]

I've done some pretty atrocius mixes on really good gear, I've also done some great mixes on gear that was held together with rolling papers and toothpaste.

I've done some shows that I wanted to crawl under the board and die, but at the end of the show, all kinds of people would walk by and tell me how great it sounded.

I all cases, I'm sure I could come up with some excuse as to why it didn't sound as good as it should have, but at the end of the day if you are the FOH tech, the mix is your responsibility. If there is something wrong, there are usually a few guys that you can tell to fix it, but some days I'm just off.

Ever try mixing audio with a really bad cold after an 8 hour flight to an airport 3 hours away from the venue and not being able to get to the gig until 20 minutes before showtime because no one in the neighboring country you are giging in will accept Canadian currency, or even knwo what it looks like for that matter???

[Remoteness]

Hey, you're only as good as your last gig.
If you're still working it, you're still in it!
Congrats to everyone still doing the do!

[Voltzjammer]

Maybe they're trying to makeup for all of the "Thin" sounding records they've made in the past.IMHO they didn't keep pace with the more bottom heavy sound of the '90's when they surely coulda/shoulda. That being said I've been a fan since Fly By Night was released and have never been disappointed live or otherwise. Can't wait to see them in June!!!!!!!!

[DannyL]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Im talking about the live mix.. not some audio truck that some knuckle head was mixing on outside the venue

Ya know, there are are a fair few of us that ARE that particular Knuckle-head mixing in the TV audio truck.

And I'd rather be having a bad day in audio than a good day in accounting.

Not that this has anything to do with concerts being too loud. My biggest complaint is the over use of subs. I am quite sure that many people mixing PA have no idea of what the operational theory of subs is or how to set them so that they enhance the experience, not overwhelm it.

Regards;
Danny

[ebulb]

the problem with blaming someone else in the chain is the person you are telling the story to has no way of knowing whether you are just making excuses for your own inabilities or its a legit reason. So you end up looking like a whinger more often than not.

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by DannyL

.... I am quite sure that many people mixing PA have no idea of what the operational theory of subs is or how to set them so that they enhance the experience, not overwhelm it.
...

Yes, I run into this alot. Some people set up their systems so the gain structure on their subs isn't the same as the rest of the system. When it's set up like this, the subs have no dynamics, they seem like they are either not on or running full boar.

I like sub, but I hate it when it sticks out like a soar thumb at the most inapropriate times. It's like wearing track pants to the Catholic Girl College gigs.

[MBishopSFX]

My wife and I went to a major venue concert recently with three equally well-known acts. All the performers were performing without digital effects or autotuning (they don't need it!). Overall, the system and stage volume was quite tolerable. However, the first two acts had quite a bit of noticeable distortion and clipping over the PA, especially on vocals. My wife even commented that the vocals were really bad-sounding and "muddy." The third act came on and the distortion was completely gone, even though the overall system gain was a touch higher (as usual for the headliner). The system sound was fuller, more solid, and vocals completely clean and clear. What was different? The only thing I could see was that the first two acts had all vocals and musicians except drums on wireless. The third act was completely wired - no one was wireless, including all the musicians.

I have little experience with current hi-end wireless audio. Is the state of wireless audio quality still that far off from wired? Maybe I'm blaming the wrong thing for the quality differences at this particular concert. It could have been because of who was mixing, although I'm sure all these acts would have a top-notch person at the board.

.

[Andy Hamm]

Yes, there is a noticable difference between wireless and cabled mics. Also, some musicians have their own wireless mics for smaller venues, and they can be pretty old and ratty. Trying to convince a singer that uses a wireless all the time to use a cabled mic is like trying to take candy from a baby.

[tonemaker]

Originally Posted by carlheinz

Concert sound seems to be getting more like a cheap boom box at 150 db.The philosophy goes something like this.."if its really loud,no one will notice how crappy it sounds".

Clipping P.A..Harsh distortion from too much bass eating into the headroom.

There is an art to mix so it sounds powerful but not maxxed out.I pay good money to see a show in a good seat but the dork running the board thinks that louder=better so song by song it builds up and you cant hear anything and then it's earplug time.This was the case for a Canadian rock trio who's been at it for 30+years and can afford to have amazing concert sound.I also think it has something to do with new digital mixers and how they have no headroom when put against a Gamble or a yamaha PM-3k or 4k or whatever.The digital craps out after a certain point and it's too late to back down or it sounds weird.

I think the problem is mostly psychological and cultural. People just don't seem to know how to turn down anymore. It's lame. I don't go to live concerts anymore because they are always too loud it seems like and i prefer polished studio type electronic music sounds.

But the damned loudness war is killing both live and studio music.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

The only thing I could see was that the first two acts had all vocals and musicians except drums on wireless. The third act was completely wired - no one was wireless, including all the musicians.

I have little experience with current hi-end wireless audio. Is the state of wireless audio quality still that far off from wired? Maybe I'm blaming the wrong thing for the quality differences at this particular concert. It could have been because of who was mixing, although I'm sure all these acts would have a top-notch person at the board.

.

i recorded a gig recently where the vocals sounded like they were slightly overdriven.. the singer was on a wireless mic and the sound guy (who owned the whole system) throughout the afternoon kept being really concious to tell the singer and others to make sure they turned the mic was off because the battery didnt have much juice left.

So i got to wondering afterwards if the distortion was a side affect from a dying battery ? At the gig i thought it sounded like the vocal was driving into a comp too hard and overdriving that way.. it was also slightly feeding back all night which i wondered if a dying wireless battery might add to that problem also ?

[Janb]

Overhere (NL) i just stoped going to shows. All clubs are changing to the new speaker systems that sound so bad. It's not worth $50 for an hour of noise. The 'line array' type speakers that are build to project 130db into the venue, not _good_ just a lot .. of noise, not music.
(earplugs are standard anyways.. i tape shows so i can listen at home on a normal volume)

Last year i taped * a show, first 45 min was real bad.
The bands soundguy was at the board , (1,5 hour sound check) ... and when the acoustic part started the venues foh guy steped in and turned all the compressors off..
(nice those digital boards with screens, you can realy follow what they are doing)
2nd part of the show was much better.. still not good, but al least i know not to go to that venue anymore. And it was a new venue, special build club setting for rock music.. at least the parking was free..
and the band.. some band with ?30 years under the belt from East LA..

*(taping DPA4011>apogee ad1000>tascam hdp2)

[Kenton]

Originally Posted by ebulb

i recorded a gig recently where the vocals sounded like they were slightly overdriven.. the singer was on a wireless mic and the sound guy (who owned the whole system) throughout the afternoon kept being really concious to tell the singer and others to make sure they turned the mic was off because the battery didnt have much juice left.

That is appalling - real "amateur-night-out" stuff.
Inexcusable.

Fresh batteries before the show.
ALWAYS.

Being cheap there is a false economy.


It's also possible that the wireless mic's sensitivity was set wrongly and the transmitter was clipping.

[santibanks]

Originally Posted by Janb

Overhere (NL) i just stoped going to shows. All clubs are changing to the new speaker systems that sound so bad. It's not worth $50 for an hour of noise. The 'line array' type speakers that are build to project 130db into the venue, not _good_ just a lot .. of noise, not music.
(earplugs are standard anyways.. i tape shows so i can listen at home on a normal volume)

Yes I feel you! There are certain venues I just boycot. I always go to 013 or the HMH. They sound great! But de melkweg and paradiso sound aweful. I was at a porcupine tree gig at the melkweg. I always wear earplugs to protect my ears. Even with those things in, my ears just hurt and the sound was one big wall of distorted noise… I remember a girl standing next to me, she got sick from the sound…

I went to see Genesis a couple of days later in the Arena Stadium (and Gabriel at the Westergas fabriek terrein) and that sounded crystal clear with earplugs in (to filter out the reverb from the venue).

But I totally agree that most concerts are too loud. Some sound crystal clear but still too loud. Guess im getting old…

[johnsound]

We may be getting old, but distorted & over-loud concert sound along with cheap ear-buds will come back to bite the younger generation with a vengeance. High-frequency hearing loss will start much earlier for them and serious hearing problems will follow.

My biggest problem as a theatre sound designer has been trying to persuade directors and producers of musicals that louder doesn't equal better. But the many of the leading directors are already suffering from HF hearing deficiencies and therefore demanding louder and brighter sound reinforcement. I solved my problem simply: I don't do musicals anymore except on my terms, which basically means that I don't do musicals anymore, with the odd exception. Last musical I went to as an audience member in London, I left at intermission with my ears ringing.

Sad, isn't it?

[firby]

The Paradiso is a great iconic music location of the world. But those corners under the balcony are horrendous. I have not encountered another famous venue that could do that. I wonder if your beer would foam up from such a nasty standing wave at those frequencies. Personally I never studied my beer in that corner as I would just hurry out of there whenever anything low hit.

Originally Posted by santibanks

Yes I feel you! There are certain venues I just boycot. I always go to 013 or the HMH. They sound great! But de melkweg and paradiso sound aweful. I was at a porcupine tree gig at the melkweg. I always wear earplugs to protect my ears. Even with those things in, my ears just hurt and the sound was one big wall of distorted noise… I remember a girl standing next to me, she got sick from the sound…

I went to see Genesis a couple of days later in the Arena Stadium (and Gabriel at the Westergas fabriek terrein) and that sounded crystal clear with earplugs in (to filter out the reverb from the venue).

But I totally agree that most concerts are too loud. Some sound crystal clear but still too loud. Guess im getting old…

[edva]

Originally Posted by Kenton

It's also possible that the wireless mic's sensitivity was set wrongly and the transmitter was clipping.

This is usually the culprit, singer soundchecks at level "x", then comes out and sings at 2x. Sound guy has already set internal gain on wireless mic to what he thinks is good gain stage, but once singer starts clipping the mic, no way to get to it for adjustment, so the show goes on with clipping. Strangely, singers hear the distortion, and sing LOUDER! Ha ha, it has happened to me. But, never again. Proper gain staging or not, I turn the damn things down almost all the way, unless I am 110% positive about the singer's volume level. Just one more reason why I don't like wireless. Like I say when I'm trying to convince them to use a good wired mic " do you use wireless in the studio?"

[Bibster]

Originally Posted by firby

The Paradiso is a great iconic music location of the world. But those corners under the balcony are horrendous.

Yet the mixer stack has like always been right there. Not exactly in the corner (Merchandise stand) but still. No way you can (could?) put it in the center, and in front of SL, there was (is?) a bar.

It's Paradiso, btw, not *the* paradiso.

Magic place: Paradiso Trailer - Jeroen Berkvens - YouTube

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Concert sound engineers are usually really really good. BUT,,,

I was at a concert at Blossom Music Center for a show by James Taylor. The sound was so loud in the pavilion I had to tear up my handkerchief and stuff it in my ears. At the intermission I went up to the FOH engineer, exchanged pleasantries and credentials with him and told him what I was experiencing. He looked me in the eyes and said "I agree with you but it is what the management wants". "They want the place rocking." He had an SPL meter on the console and told me that he was never to go below 90 dBSPL unless James was speaking and not singing or playing. Folks this is suppose to be an acoustic concert not a Grateful Dead event. I went out and sat on the grass for the rest of the concert and the sound was much better on the lawn.

When I was doing concert sound we had one tech rider that said we had to provide a system capable of providing 135 dBSPL at the back wall of a 1200 seat auditorium for extended periods of time. That SPL number is the threshold of pain. What level we would have provide the front of the house to provide that level in the back row was unbelievable.

Concert sound levels are becoming dangerous and can have lasting effects on the members of the audience and the tech crew. Also distorted over the top effects seem to be the norm anymore and they ADD to the overall nasty sound that a lot of groups seem to like.

I was at a PFISH concert in an old gym. I was there in an official capacity and I had on three sets of earplugs including the type used by loggers for chain saw noise and I could still hear the band just fine. There were some people that we sitting inside the subs and I cannot imaging what SPL they were subjected to. The speaker stacks were over 20 feet high and could have probably filled up the Cleveland Indians stadium just fine.

It has to stop sometime before everyone concerned loses their hearing - for good.

MTCW and YMMV

[edva]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Concert sound engineers are usually really really good. BUT,,,

I was at a concert at Blossom Music Center for a show by James Taylor. The sound was so loud in the pavilion I had to tear up my handkerchief and stuff it in my ears. At the intermission I went up to the FOH engineer, exchanged pleasantries and credentials with him and told him what I was experiencing. He looked me in the eyes and said "I agree with you but it is what the management wants". "They want the place rocking." He had an SPL meter on the console and told me that he was never to go below 90 dBSPL unless James was speaking and not singing or playing. Folks this is suppose to be an acoustic concert not a Grateful Dead event. I went out and sat on the grass for the rest of the concert and the sound was much better on the lawn.

When I was doing concert sound we had one tech rider that said we had to provide a system capable of providing 135 dBSPL at the back wall of a 1200 seat auditorium for extended periods of time. That SPL number is the threshold of pain. What level we would have provide the front of the house to provide that level in the back row was unbelievable.

Concert sound levels are becoming dangerous and can have lasting effects on the members of the audience and the tech crew. Also distorted over the top effects seem to be the norm anymore and they ADD to the overall nasty sound that a lot of groups seem to like.

I was at a PFISH concert in an old gym. I was there in an official capacity and I had on three sets of earplugs including the type used by loggers for chain saw noise and I could still heart the band just fine. There were some people that we sitting inside the subs and I cannot imaging what SPL they were subjected to. The speaker stacks were over 20 feet high and could have probably filled up the Cleveland Indians stadium just fine.

It has to stop sometime before everyone concerned loses their hearing - for good.

MTCW and YMMV

Good post. I agree.