mid-side setup

[zimv20]

anyone have any tips on how to get good sounds? anyone use a ribbon for the sides? how should i be monitoring it?

[djui5]

it all depends on what your tracking. Find a spot in the room where you would like sound to come from...say in front of a drum kit or in front of an acoustic....

I've never used ribbons, though that's a good idea for some applications.

Monitoring is dependant on you. The further you push up the sides the wider the image is...so you (imo) should monitor like it was in the mix...which is what I do with everything anyways...

[zimv20]

it's a pipe organ i'll be recording. the L/R ranks have different instruments, so i'm not horribly concerned about the difference in the back/front ribbon sounds.

for monitoring, isn't there some kind of m/s decoder? or maybe it's not necessary.

[drew]

Yes an encoder is needed. I'd recommend recording them separately and decode post tape so you maintain as much flexibility as you can.

check out:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/eng_pub/MicUni/Main.html

[djui5]

You could decode it yourself, most people do. Or there's some boards that have decoders built in them.

To decode you need to take the bi-polar mic and mult it, then take the 2 copies and flip one of them out of phase. Then send to whatever medium your recording to. On the monitor side pan both "bi-polar" mics up the middle and adjust the levels going to the multi-track untill the sound dissappears so they are completely out of phase, then pan left-right and bring up the cardoid mic in the middle. You can adjust the level of the left/right to adjust the stereo width.

I'd try settting the mic's in front of the pipe organ to see what kind of sound you get...

I've never tracked a pipe organ...maybe someone here has?

[zimv20]

i've done a test session on this pipe organ, using 4 or 5 mics. didn't quite get what i wanted. i posted over at recpit and got suggestions for two two mic setups -- one was m/s, the other (two) spaced omnis. i'll try each at some point.

i did find this GT item:
http://www.midi-classics.com/h/h27574.htm

my plan next time is to track to DAT, then dump it into PTLE. djui5, it sounds like i can do all the ops in PT and not worry about a h/w unit. but i won't have the PT stuff on site, so i'll have to record it, drive home (two states away) and see what i've got...

[zimv20]

Originally posted by drew

check out:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/eng_pub/MicUni/Main.html

nice resource, thanks

[drew]

http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/MS_Stereo.html

check out Wes Dooley's MS38 lite. It's battery powered and has a headphone amp built in.

[zimv20]

yeah, that's what i was thinking of. thanks drew

[djui5]

Originally posted by zimv20
i've done a test session on this pipe organ, using 4 or 5 mics. didn't quite get what i wanted. i posted over at recpit and got suggestions for two two mic setups -- one was m/s, the other (two) spaced omnis. i'll try each at some point.

i did find this GT item:
http://www.midi-classics.com/h/h27574.htm

my plan next time is to track to DAT, then dump it into PTLE. djui5, it sounds like i can do all the ops in PT and not worry about a h/w unit. but i won't have the PT stuff on site, so i'll have to record it, drive home (two states away) and see what i've got...

Spaced omni's would work also..but MS is so much more fun...

You could get a balanced XLR y cable, one female end that goes into the bi-polar mic and 2 male end's that go into a pre, then flip the phase on one of the pre's and set the gain untill the signal dissappears on your monitors....
How would you be monitoring the recording? What's your set-up?

You could just track the 2 mic's and then decode it at home...but I'd rather monitor the decoded version while tracking so I can make adjustments if necessary...that's just me though.
I don't think you should have to buy a decoder though...$600 for something you can easily do yourself seems kinda silly to me..

[zimv20]

Originally posted by djui5

How would you be monitoring the recording? What's your set-up?

setup is outboard pre's/compression into DAT. absent getting something like the AEA headphone amp, i'd listen through the DAT headphone jack (never heard an encoded m/s signal -- would it just give me a headache?)

or -- i could pick up an mbox, bring my laptop and track to that. do on-site PTLE work to see how it ends up sounding (again, headphones).

I don't think you should have to buy a decoder though...$600 for something you can easily do yourself seems kinda silly to me..

yeah, to me too. though the aea headphone amp is "only" $300.

You could get a balanced XLR y cable, one female end that goes into the bi-polar mic and 2 male end's that go into a pre, then flip the phase on one of the pre's and set the gain untill the signal dissappears on your monitors....

not sure what you're getting at -- would i then record this signal? (regardless, the only pre i have now that has phase reverse is the RNP)

you're right -- even discussing m/s is way more fun than spaced omnis.

[e-cue]

Originally posted by zimv20
how should i be monitoring it?

The Emes Owl system is kick ass for montioring these types of situations. Just make sure you check everything out in mono.

[djui5]

Originally posted by zimv20
setup is outboard pre's/compression into DAT. absent getting something like the AEA headphone amp, i'd listen through the DAT headphone jack (never heard an encoded m/s signal -- would it just give me a headache?)

Either way if you monitor the headphone out of the dat you wouldn't be hearing the MS decoded anyways...because you need to pan the outputs of the 2 bi-polar mic's from the dat left and right...which you can't do without an external board unless the DAT auto pan's it's channels sequentially to L,R on the headphone jack, not sure about that....
Also e-cue suggested checking mono. What is going to happen is when you hit mono (with the DECODED tracks) the sides will dissappear and all you will hear is the cardoid center mic. That's one of the biggest benefits of this set-up...when you hit mono you still have a strong center image instead of a "phantom" center which is comprised of summing a L/R stereo track...
If you listen to the tracks without decoding it will just sound like a cardoid and a bi-polar mic, wouldn't sound that bad. It's when you decode it that the magic happens

or -- i could pick up an mbox, bring my laptop and track to that. do on-site PTLE work to see how it ends up sounding (again, headphones).

This might be a good option...plug the cardoid and the bi-polar into pro-tools, then in pro-tools you'll duplicate the bi-polar track and flip the duplicated track out of phase (via the digi comp inserted in the track and all setting set to bypass, hit the phase button, or just audiosuite "invert" the track) and pan them left/right. Then you could monitor the output of the MS encoding...

not sure what you're getting at -- would i then record this signal? (regardless, the only pre i have now that has phase reverse is the RNP)

I was thinking if you had 3 pre-amps that you could split the output of the bi-polar mic, plug it into 2 pre's and flip the phase on one of them, then send this signal to the dat...but using a cable like that might not be a great idea for sound quality purposes. If you do make sure you only use 48v on one of the pre's. This won't even be necessary if you don't have a way to monitor the decoded output....

you're right -- even discussing m/s is way more fun than spaced omnis. [/b]

Wait till you hear it...

If I have somehow confused you on how this all works and is set-up let me know and I'll explain the whole process...

[zimv20]

Originally posted by e-cue
The Emes Owl system is kick ass for montioring these types of situations. Just make sure you check everything out in mono.

looks nice

i should say that this project has no budget; i'm doing it for a friend. so even $300 for the aea thing is $300 over budget (i.e. my pocket).

i'm also trying to minimize how much gear i'll be loading into my car (no monitors, no PT rig). though i do need enough to make a good recording, obviously.

thanks for the info, though.

[picksail]

Here's one for you.

I just returned home from doing a location recording on an incredible 18 piece big Band.

Tracked to a new app called Tracktion which in my opinion, is a little buggy, but served the purpose of recording up to eight tracks at once into a Metric Halo Mobile I/O and Mac Ti Book...minimal set-up. The plan is to fly it back to the studio were everything will be transfered into the ProTools HD rig.

Everything was tracked using seven mics.

1-MC mic (house 58 fed from console)
1-Coles 4038 (positioned 4'H, 2' back from floor tom facing across towards the HH)
1-TLM 103 (solo spot)
1-RE20(1' from bridge of stand-up bass)
1-AT 3035 (inside Yamaha C7 piano 9"H, center of strings)
2-AKG 414 w/CK12 capsules(Blumlein Difference Technique flown 22'H, center stage 20' back)

Now the most ridiculous thing is that before we left the studio for the gig, we decided to test everything beforehand. After serious deliberation and erroneous measures, I arrived at the BDT. This involves using two spaced cardioids 17cm apart separated by a Jecklin disc. It actually started out as an ORTF pattern with a disc in between, but upon set-up at the venue I chose to reduce the angle. Thus we now have BDT.

Here's where it gets pretty ridiculous. We actually, didn't have a Jecklin disc on hand so we ventured throughout the entire studio and grounds to find materials for a make-shift disc. What we wound up with is pretty silly. First, I grabbed a pop filter with a goose neck. Then we affixed an 8"x 8" piece of weather board (carpenter's remnants from current exterior work) to the pop filter with clamps. Next came the grey egg crate packing supplies we found in a box, which were then applied to the weather board with clamps. This thing looked terrible, but it worked wonderfully. I mean, so bad it has been named "The Ghetto Disc".

This technique is great. And with the 'disc' you get a much sharper image and serious stereo intensity way down into the lower mid range.

I took pictures of this horrific thing hanging in the air for the express purpose of posting them here. You gotta see it to believe it. So ugly!!

I'll post the pictures hopefully, by tomorrow.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by picksail
I took pictures of this horrific thing hanging in the air for the express purpose of posting them here. You gotta see it to believe it. So ugly!!

*this* i've got to see

[zakco]

Originally posted by djui5
I was thinking if you had 3 pre-amps that you could split the output of the bi-polar mic, plug it into 2 pre's and flip the phase on one of them, then send this signal to the dat...but using a cable like that might not be a great idea for sound quality purposes. If you do make sure you only use 48v on one of the pre's. This won't even be necessary if you don't have a way to monitor the decoded output....

I use another variation of the Y-cable approach to M/S.

I have a couple of custom cables that are XLR male (preamp-out) to dual XLR female (converter in). I also have a version with Dual TRS for the converter end.

This allows me to use just one preamp channel for the fig-8 mic.

For monitoring though, I still need to use a mixer to combine and phase reverse one channel. I suppose I could reverse the polarity of one end of the Y-cable but of course I'd still need 3 monitor channels to hear the stereo image.

Interesting problem this.......

-Z-

[zimv20]

not nearly as kludgey as the picture i got from your description. nice bit of improvisation.

[picksail]

Front

[picksail]

and rear

[Ted Nightshade]

I just did my first mid-side recording yesterday- what a kick! I've been perfecting the art of one-mic recording for some time now- just added the figure 8 side mic, and off we go...

I didn't have a way to monitor it as L/R while tracking, so I just made sure both mics sounded OK on their own, and that the mid mic sounded grand.

For mixdown, I just used a y-cord to take the R side signal to the mixer and flip the polarity on one side.

I'm thinking of making a custom "mid-side R side" y cable that has the polarity reversed on one end- any liability here? Seems like it ought to work nicely, but you never know. (I don't, anyway!)

I was quite pleased with the results of my experiment! I'm hooked.