Recording a jazz quartet - help

[sabian]

Hi there, I have recorded some jazz in the past but not with the current setup. Very low budget - no time to experiment, so please help with any suggestions.
Line up: sax, guitar, drums, double bass. 3 rooms - drums+bass together in a small but balanced room. Guitar amp separate (small) room, sax (and guitarist) playing in the control room. G5 fan in the background I'm afraid, can't move it though...
it has been tolerable in the past with close miced vocals.

Mics: 2x AEA R84, Coles 4038, Beyer M160, T-bone RB500 and RB700 (I think similar to Shinybox in the USA?), 4x Oktawa 012 (2x matched pairs, all capsules), AKG C12a, D112 ("egg"), 3x SM57, 1x SM58.

All going through the Raindirk Symphony desk, also AEA ribbon pre on loan - what to use it for? Genex A/D (192k), Nuendo.

What I know so far is they are not after "dry and intimate" production ....

What I thought of trying is:

sax - Coles or AEA , possibly C12a
drums - 2x AEA (if not on sax) A/B or X/Y?, or 2x MK012 and 1x AEA centre or front of kit... snare - 012? M160? probably not sm57 ... kick D112 or a T-bone ribbon

depending on the above
guitar - T-bone , M160 or AEA backside
bass - DI(?) or/and a T-bone or D112? Possibly 012 at the bridge? Worried about spill from drums next to it...

I was going to leave compression for the mix to make things simpler but am very tempted to at least put my new EAR660s on the bass and maybe sax - no experience with it yet so any initial settings recommended? Also have 3x Cranesong Trakkers,
ADL C1000, 1176 silver by the way.

Once again, any suggestions and experiences much appreciated - thanks.
This is a GREAT board by the way!

[themaidsroom]

i think you should record the whole thing in mono in one
room - the coles to the ear 660..........
i have isolation areas here, but i always put
jazz players together as they tend to be the
best at balancing themselves.........




be well
good luck


- jack

[druhms]

It kind of depends on how "hardcore" these jazz guys are. They may insist on being all in one room. If so, good luck. I just did a jazz record and stuck the drummer in one room and the rest of the band in another room. This worked out great for me. The one thing that is going to be your biggest hurdle is the bass mic. If you plan on splitting them up, I would not stick the drums in with the bass. It looks like you have some good gear, but I would be more concerned with mic placement and musician placement. Try to stay off the compressors going to tape.
Druhms

[NOCCA]

I agree Jazz likes one room.

If you can squeeze them in there, have them all play in one room.


As for micing, experiment as much as possible, but I'd start with

M160 on GTR find a good placement. Maybe add a 57 for a choice at mixdown.
Coles on sax.
C12a on double bass, maybe throw up an oktava in a different spot for choice.
D112 on kick.
57 on snare. If a lot of delicate snare work, maybe throw up an octava on undersnare.
R84s on overheads, but in a spaced pair with the nulls pointing towards the other musicians as much as possible. (let me know if this needs more explaining)

Throw up the remaining octavas in omni where the room sounds best.

Pres no opinion.

Or get them all in the room, have them get a balance, place a blumlein of r84s where it sounds the best. (I'd also throw a d112 on kick, and maybe something on gtr and bass, but make sure that the r84s sound damn good, that's where you would want 99% of the sound coming from)

Best luck,
>>AG

[druhms]

Ditto NOCCA's post.
Also remember to check your phase on ALL mics.

[tsvisser]

i would have approached it as an XY pair as your main focus... either pair of omnis up close to recapture bass response if you needed it in the mix, and then close mic some of the performers for safety or light mix to help hype up a center or slightly off-center image if that is the sound that they want. you know your mics better than me, coles on sax sounds good. 1 room, maybe open it up a bit to allow some ambience.

[sabian]

Thanks a lot so far guys. I agree it would be best having them all in one room but it is just too small - the studio was designed for rock/pop type of bands with separation being the priority. Anyway, the guys know that and are fine with being separated as long as they have visual contact and good monitoring. The smaller room has no visual connection and so I mainly use it for guitar amps. I could put the bass in the control room together with sax, but the sax player (the bandleader) wanted good separation in case he decides to do any creative/corrective overdubs - so not really hardcore jazz.
Therefore it looks like I'm stuck with the double bass next to the drum kit and I think the bass will be the challenge. Let's see what comes out of his pickup. Do you guys think the drum spill in the bass mic (especially if C12a) could actually be usefull as the drum room mic at the same time? It will be a pig to mix ... that's why I thought of maybe using Hypercardioid M160 or 012 on the bass with hopefully enough bottom end coming through the pickup - or the D112/T-bone as well.

R84s on overheads, but in a spaced pair with the nulls pointing towards the other musicians as much as possible. (let me know if this needs more explaining)

Did you mean the overheads in A+B Nocca? I know the nulls are the sides of the fig.8 AEA ribbons - that's what you meant, right?

I use 57 on snare a lot but kind of thought 012 might be nicer for jazz. Anybody tried it? M160?

Same with D112 on Kick - the T-bone ribbon I thought might sound softer, warmer and rounder?

I know coles should be the first thing to try on the sax, but I love my AEA and will definitely try it , it should give it some more air.

In case I really love that, the 012s will have to be the overheads with one AEA spare - front of kit? I like the 012s as overheads (cymbals) but overall it will probably be a bit thin (toms!) so either AEA as fok or a room mic or something ? T-bone could also be nice for that - in which case AEA on bass?

I know the real answer is trying it all out but as I said there will be a very limited time for that.

Thank you all again! Any more suggestions?

[chandlersonic]

I've tried the oktava on snare and it didn't work for me, the beyer m160 is nice for this application, you might want to try it.
But honestly the 57 can't be bad...and you probably won't even use the dedicated snare mic in the mix that much. For jazz I get my snare sound from the ohs and room mics, sounds a lot more natural, gives a better sense of space...

You could try one of the oktavas on the bass in addition to whatever other mic you'll be using on it, under the strings ( rubber band technique).

For the git, a plain old 57'll do the trick , maybe try the Tbone mic, I don't think you'll like it much, It's a bit muddy for my taste on guitar and I'd rather have a 57...

I agree, jazz sounds better when everybody's in the same room. When doing this I'll use a mono or stereo room mic ( a royer sf12 or aea r88 would be perfect for this app) and get a really nice , balanced overall image of the band and then place the instruments mics according to what I might be missing in the main mic.
This is not anything new, but to me it's really the only way to capture the band as a whole and get that nice "live" sound.

One last thing, Do NOT use the Tbones as the room mics, use the r84s maybe and use the tbones as the ohs/fok. The Tbone are pretty dirty ( which is cool for rock room mics but not for an balanced jazz band sound).

[leddy]

Originally Posted by sabian

I was going to leave compression for the mix to make things simpler but am very tempted to at least put my new EAR660s on the bass and maybe sax - no experience with it yet so any initial settings recommended?

If you are unfamilliar with a piece of gear, I think you would want to avoid tracking with it until you know how it will behave.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by chandlersonic

I've tried the oktava on snare and it didn't work for me, the beyer m160 is nice for this application, you might want to try it.
But honestly the 57 can't be bad...and you probably won't even use the dedicated snare mic in the mix that much. For jazz I get my snare sound from the ohs and room mics, sounds a lot more natural, gives a better sense of space...

You could try one of the oktavas on the bass in addition to whatever other mic you'll be using on it, under the strings ( rubber band technique).

For the git, a plain old 57'll do the trick , maybe try the Tbone mic, I don't think you'll like it much, It's a bit muddy for my taste on guitar and I'd rather have a 57...

I agree, jazz sounds better when everybody's in the same room. When doing this I'll use a mono or stereo room mic ( a royer sf12 or aea r88 would be perfect for this app) and get a really nice , balanced overall image of the band and then place the instruments mics according to what I might be missing in the main mic.
This is not anything new, but to me it's really the only way to capture the band as a whole and get that nice "live" sound.

One last thing, Do NOT use the Tbones as the room mics, use the r84s maybe and use the tbones as the ohs/fok. The Tbone are pretty dirty ( which is cool for rock room mics but not for an balanced jazz band sound).

Thanks again - chandlersonic, I agree with T-bone being dirty and as much as I like it on guitar for mid texture it is probably not the best for jazz guitar. It is also not so dynamically responsive, so M160 or 57 ...

As for the bass, could you describe "the rubber band technique" and, moracspace, "tape a dynamic mic to the bridge" - which mic (out of my list) and how exactly?
That would be in addition to the "main" mic, right? Have never done that before ...

Dont worry about the mics.Its jazz.They will need sight lines,im sure of that.Mixdown is when you will need to turn the recording into what they want to hear.Ive used basic drum micing technics on all of the jazz albums ive recorded.Jazz is my reference,sm57 snare,re20 kick,akg414 toms top,md421 bottom,SDC overheads,bass tape a dynamic mic to the bridge,gtr well ge the cleanest pre you own and a ribbon or md421.Ive recorded jazz for 22 years,this works for me and the labels we record for.


Moracspace, I don't see a problem with going for a standard closed mic drum sound and sorting out the balance in the mix where O/H will play the main role... Unfortunately I don't have a pair of md421 for toms so either 57s (hmm) or just let a
FOK mic (T-bone?) give the whole thing (toms!) some body... Especially if O/H are 012s! Haven't tried AEA R84s as O/H yet but it should be a lot beefier. Between the two what and which technicue would be your choice for the O/H? X/Y, omni on 012s? AEAs in A/B? Also , positioning of the FOK (T-bone/AEA?)?
How about 012s in X/Y (maybe lower, closer to cymbals) and 1x AEA in the centre (maybe higher) for fullness? Or as FOK instead....

It will inevitably be a "produced" sound which brings me to the compression issue. As I said , I was going to leave it for the mix,but... I mainly bought the pair of EAR660s
for the mix bus where for my band (funk/rock/blah) they were just unbeatable. Never
tried them on a jazz mix , so - would you guys use EAR660s on the 2bus for jazz?
The only alternatives for me are 2x TRAKKERS (a bit thin for my band, but it might be just the thing for jazz in opto...had to sell STC8 , bummer) - or no compression on the 2bus...
If EAR660 on the 2bus I would definitely try tracking the bass and sax with them.

All comments much appreciated!

[pkautzsch]

You could also put up a "back of kit" mic somewhere near the drummer's right ear. To me, that's where you can get a jazzish drum sound most easily. Fire-and-forget. I use an Oktava tube LDC (MKL-2500), but probably a good ribbon will work, too. Might add quite some richness and lo-mids to "thin" 012 overheads.
I would not, however, close-mike the toms. Conservative jazz is about "natural" sound, so it's OHs + snare + maybe kick + "kit mic" front or back.
If the bass player doesn't mind, you can stick a SM57 or 012 hyper into the bridge, wrapped in foam or fixed with rubber band. Great thread about that somewhere on Remote Possibilities. I've found that a lightweight mic works best, even if it's not the one with the best sound. The heavier the mic is, the more it will mess with the instrument's sound.
Why don't you put the sax into the iso room? Guitar amp will probably be the least susceptible to G5 fan noise. Is there a door between the two recording rooms which could be left open for sightlines? Bleed isn't that much of an issue with a jazz band.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

You could also put up a "back of kit" mic somewhere near the drummer's right ear. To me, that's where you can get a jazzish drum sound most easily. Fire-and-forget. I use an Oktava tube LDC (MKL-2500), but probably a good ribbon will work, too. Might add quite some richness and lo-mids to "thin" 012 overheads.
I would not, however, close-mike the toms. Conservative jazz is about "natural" sound, so it's OHs + snare + maybe kick + "kit mic" front or back.
If the bass player doesn't mind, you can stick a SM57 or 012 hyper into the bridge, wrapped in foam or fixed with rubber band. Great thread about that somewhere on Remote Possibilities. I've found that a lightweight mic works best, even if it's not the one with the best sound. The heavier the mic is, the more it will mess with the instrument's sound.
Why don't you put the sax into the iso room? Guitar amp will probably be the least susceptible to G5 fan noise. Is there a door between the two recording rooms which could be left open for sightlines? Bleed isn't that much of an issue with a jazz band.

Thanks pkautzsch!
Good ideas there - the problem is that the sax player actually wants isolation for potential corrective/creative overdubs, so can't swap him with the guitar amp ... I could keep the doors open for sightlines otherwise and the G5 would certainly be less of a problem with guitar ... Double bass next to the drum kit still seems to be the biggest challenge, have looked up more info on the rubber band technique, so either I'll try that or a t-bone ribbon at the bridge with null facing the drums (M160 might give the best rejection) or try an AEA and see if it works ok as a drum room mic at the same time - it will be tricky getting the levels right in the mix but it might just work out ...

Any suggestions on mixing/ compression issue?

[pkautzsch]

What I still don't understand: if there is an iso room for the guit amp, why can't the sax use that iso room? But I guess you've thought about that longer than I have.
As to mixing and compression: if it's miked well, it will mix itself. You're going for rather "natural" sounds. I'm always *very* careful with compression. Maybe a tad on the kit mic, but not really much, and maybe another 3 dB of gain reduction on the 2-bus. Prefer riding faders.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

What I still don't understand: if there is an iso room for the guit amp, why can't the sax use that iso room? But I guess you've thought about that longer than I have.
As to mixing and compression: if it's miked well, it will mix itself. You're going for rather "natural" sounds. I'm always *very* careful with compression. Maybe a tad on the kit mic, but not really much, and maybe another 3 dB of gain reduction on the 2-bus. Prefer riding faders.

The guitar amp will be in the entrance lobby which is a small, balanced and treated room but without any sight lines to the main rec. room (drums + bass) or to the control room. I might change this in the future. So , the reason is no visual contact, unless I opened the doors as you suggested but then there's no isolation....which the sax player wants. (If that was the choice `i would rather move the double bass away from the drums I think, anyway...)
I thought of throwing a blanket or something over my G5 (only!) while recording, it should help as long as the mac survives...

As for the compression, I think I'll leave it for the mix and probably mainly use my EAR660s on the 2 bus, gently. The only thing I wondered is weather I should consider tracking the sax with a 660 very lightly.... Depending on how much he moves etc, but don't want to screw up any dynamics for sure.

Thanks again!

[pkautzsch]

Ah, I see.
Sounds like a good plan. As to sax compression: some jazz players very well know how to work the mic, others don't and might need slight compression (or fader riding - I try to do that kind of dynamics processing manually and to not give that task to a stupid machine).

[sabian]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Ah, I see.
Sounds like a good plan. As to sax compression: some jazz players very well know how to work the mic, others don't and might need slight compression (or fader riding - I try to do that kind of dynamics processing manually and to not give that task to a stupid machine).

Yeah, that's def. one (prefered?) way of sorting out levels... I'd just like to try the 660 for the sound as well, it kind of makes everything "sit" in the mix, let's see ... And it's a new toy so , hey, I'll try to be carefull ... Really appreciate your input pkautzsch - all the best to you!

[mal]

Suggestions:

Drums in sep room...
Other room guit/bass & sax..in semi circle facing drummer...
...angle the amp so not facing the mics..maybe small gobo/screen could help

Kik D112
Snr 57 (or Oktavia if more subtle/brushes etc....)
Oheads..2 Oktavias

Bass...C12a pointed bw bridge & fingerboard or try Beyer 160

Guitar R84 & Oktavia..blend as required

Sax..Coles..might need subtle brighten w eq if dark sax...

If you're mixing later..careful if compress to tape..maybe a little with the bass...

Good luck

[sabian]

Originally Posted by mal

Suggestions:

Drums in sep room...
Other room guit/bass & sax..in semi circle facing drummer...
...angle the amp so not facing the mics..maybe small gobo/screen could help

Kik D112
Snr 57 (or Oktavia if more subtle/brushes etc....)
Oheads..2 Oktavias

Bass...C12a pointed bw bridge & fingerboard or try Beyer 160

Guitar R84 & Oktavia..blend as required

Sax..Coles..might need subtle brighten w eq if dark sax...

If you're mixing later..careful if compress to tape..maybe a little with the bass...

Good luck

Thanks Mal.
Unfortunately the sax player wants isolation so I'll have to put the bass next to the drums , a pig ... A few questions:

1) AEA R84s for Oheads instead of Oktavas? Perhaps one 012 as front/back of kit - omni?
Or the other way round - 012s Oheads, maybe AEA as FOK? What would you try first?

2)Should I even atempt to reduce the drum spill on bass ( 012 hyper under bridge, rubber band, or maybe M160 instead of C12a ) - or just go for C12a and hope it serves as a drum room mic at the same time? What about AEA for bass? Maybe mixed with DI track to help balance the levels... What would you go for first?

Thanks again

[loujudson]

I think this thread is in the wrong department - I keep looking at it thinking someone is recording live on location! But it is studio work. Where does it belong? As a live sound guy, I know what I would do but it doesn't apply at all if you have a booth and lots of time...

This is not remote, it is studio...

Lou

[pkautzsch]

Just a random thought on spill:
if you're going for isolation with one of them (as the sax player wants...), I think it's essential to go for isolation with the others too, and to not leave one instrument full of leakage from one other instrument. You might be able to get a great sax/guit/drum mix, but then the drum spill on the bass track can screw it all up completely.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by loujudson

I think this thread is in the wrong department - I keep looking at it thinking someone is recording live on location! But it is studio work. Where does it belong? As a live sound guy, I know what I would do but it doesn't apply at all if you have a booth and lots of time...

This is not remote, it is studio...

Lou

I actually thought I posted it in high end! Ups... but, the main reason for me posting this is that there will be virtually no time for experiments, so not too different from a live situation. Also, the present plan is to have the bass next to the drums - which is in tecnical terms pretty much like a "live" recording - spill etc... and so far it has been
very helpfull, thanks everybody.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Just a random thought on spill:
if you're going for isolation with one of them (as the sax player wants...), I think it's essential to go for isolation with the others too, and to not leave one instrument full of leakage from one other instrument. You might be able to get a great sax/guit/drum mix, but then the drum spill on the bass track can screw it all up completely.

Yeah, this is what I'm worried about... have just spoken to the sax player and if we have a problem he's happy not to be isolated... So, the only real option then would be to have the bass and sax in the control room - sax spill on the bass (much) better than the drum spill?

[pkautzsch]

Sax spill is not as broadband as drums. And not as loud. And not as un-directional.
But how about the "groove" thing between drums and bass. Not everyone can groove when in separate rooms.
Best thing with jazz imvho is having them all in one room, no cans, and let a certain amount of leakage help you glue the stuff together.

[loujudson]

I keep thinking about the jazz standards of the late fifties and early sixties, all in one room wirth Rudy Van Gelde rplacing mics around the space. All one room and magic, classic sounds... recorded live, too.

L

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by loujudson

I think this thread is in the wrong department - I keep looking at it thinking someone is recording live on location! But it is studio work. Where does it belong? As a live sound guy, I know what I would do but it doesn't apply at all if you have a booth and lots of time...

This is not remote, it is studio...

Lou

No, this is the right department. Remote, or acoustic and this more qualifies as acoustic, I think this is the thinking.

Doesn't it bother anyone that SAX is considered one thing? I treat Tenor sax different than I do ALTO or soprano. I will almost always choose a nice ribbon for an alto and most often a nice condensor for a tenor, especially a U47 type, if available.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

No, this is the right department. Remote, or acoustic and this more qualifies as acoustic, I think this is the thinking.

Doesn't it bother anyone that SAX is considered one thing? I treat Tenor sax different than I do ALTO or soprano. I will almost always choose a nice ribbon for an alto and most often a nice condensor for a tenor, especially a U47 type, if available.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

Thanks Henry,

my mistake - it's an alto - Coles 4038 or AEA R84, what would you go for first?
Also overheads - Oktava 012s or AEA R84s?

Pkautzsch, I think I'd rather have some sax (alto!) spill than drums on the bass.
You're right about the grove thing (and about the "one room" thing - not possible),
I'll just have to let them decide on that.

[henryrobinett]

I've never used the Coles, but I've heard nothing but fabulous things about it. I love the R84 on alto.

I've probably go for the Oktava's on overheads. Ribbons aren't bright enough for me on OHs. The Oktavas are a tad too bright for me, but I've had success with them in this application.

[pkautzsch]

Oktava 012s take EQ quite well, so if they are a tad too bright, that should be manageable. The good ones are quite clean actually, one of mine is flatter than my pair of Schoeps (the two other 012s are quite bumpy though).
Letting them decide, but being able to guide them as to what kind of result they're going to get with which setup, is the best way to do it.
You could even put a baffle between sax and bass if you do those two in one room.

[sabian]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I've never used the Coles, but I've heard nothing but fabulous things about it. I love the R84 on alto.

I've probably go for the Oktava's on overheads. Ribbons aren't bright enough for me on OHs. The Oktavas are a tad too bright for me, but I've had success with them in this application.

Oktavas in omni or cardioid on overheads? I used them in X/Y cardioid - nice top end but a bit thin, was fine with everything closed miced. No tom mics this time so maybe a ribbon (AEA?) as front of kit to beef it up ?

I'll just try Coles and AEA on alto and see - Coles is much darker ... in general I love my AEA , even for vocal sometimes. I'll also have the AEA mic pre on loan - any experience with it? Otherwise all going through my Raindirk board, no problems with gain on ribbons.
Thanks!

[mal]

One thing that can help your decisions is to know what jazz style the recording is?..is it older styles or more contemporary? ..if older then some spill can be a positive thing..if you're after a tighter contemporary feel then the isolated sounds maybe are what you are after..this will influence your mic choices also..the ribbons may work ok if you're after an older kind of sound..esp on drum oheads and bass (& sax)..the condensors will obviously give you more transients and usually a brighter sound....

if the sax absolutley has to be isolated then put it in the iso room and the drums,bass and guitar in the main room..again have the drums at one one end with a couple of small screens in front maybe to cut down some of the energy..have the guitar & bass face the drums...good eye contact plus the live side of the mics face away...and use a couple of screens in front of the bass up to waist hight..you'd be surprised how much isolation you can get..have the mic close to the fingerboard....maybe take a di as security if there are some really steaming tunes...