Jazz Trio Recording - How would you do this?

[phil.]

Hello Gearslutz friends,

how are you?

Could you help me out with some ideas for an upcoming Jazz trio recording?
The band consist of an Upright bass, Piano (medium grand) and Sax and the guys play some interesting, contemporary, free Jazz. Chek out the sound file, it will make things a bit clearer (recorded by the bass player at their last gig with two NT4's in XY).

The room looks OK on the picture and that's all I have seen myself! What do you think?

I have the following mics available for this gig:

2 x NT4
2 x CCM6MK21
2 x AKG 414 B-ULS
Sennheiser MKH30
Sennheiser MKH40

The bass player will set up a small amp behind him, as it is their usual gig set-up and they know what they are doing like that!

I would be keen to hear your approach to this. Any ideas and sugestions are more than welcome!

Thanks a lot in advance! thumbsup

Best,

Phil.

[The Listener]

You have a very sexy choice of microphones for this job... One way would be - record all three instrumentalists each with their own stereo pair and additional two NT4s (if those are Rode stereo mics) for ambience - one more close and one at the back of the hall - use as you wish in the mix...

I would use Sennheiser MS pair for sax, Schoeps inside the piano and 414 pair for the bass (you can also try reversed choice with piano and bass - but I would definitely choose MS for sax...) - if musicians could be positioned a little further from each other in this case it would be great...

Another way would be use Sennheiser MS pair for stereo ambience recording (maybe nothing else will be needed in the mix ), Schoeps inside the piano, one 414 spot micing the sax and one for spot micing the bass - and you can stay away from Rode NT4 in this set up (I didn't like the edgy sound in the mp3 you posted, but they might work as ambient mics low in the mix if you have great stereo recordings of each instrumentalist as proposed in my first idea)...

best

[phil.]

Sorry guys, the original threat stated 2 x NT4. In fact it is 2 x NT5!! Sorry.

The Listener, thank you for some interesting ideas. The stereo approach for each individual instrument sounds interesting. How would you pan tracks in this scenario? With the Sax to the right and the basss player in the middle (piano left), wouldn't a MS Set-up on the sax catch lot of bleed from the bass (bass amp) thru the fig.8 mic?

Thanks for helping out! Very cool!

Best,

Phil.

[The Listener]

If you record each instrument stereo you don't have to (mustn't) pan each stereo pair extremely L-R... you pan with taste (try also in mono - for phase and also you can hear the position where the panning sits well in the mix...). You can send the stereo pairs to subgroups and pan the compete stereo picture of individual instruments... You treat those close stereo recordings as you would treat mono instruments... don't spread everything over the whole picture...

Figure 8 would catch a lot of bleed only if it is pointed towards the bass, but if its def point is pointed towards bass it would actually catch very little of it... You shouldn't care too much about the bleed - position the players as much apart as you can and that they still feel comfortable - position mics carefully... that's all. Actually in the position you mentioned they can stand in a slight "U" formation and the figure8 def point can be directed directly to the bass and M mic facing completely away from it...

If it is 2 NT5's - use one pair fot ambient - but still - in this case maybe if you want a very high-end ambient recording use plan B - Sennheiser MS pair for ambient, Schoeps for piano stereo, one 414 for sax spot micing and another 414 for double bass spot micing... and leave NT5's out of the game...
In the mix you pan according to the ambient recording with some liberty preserved (when it sounds good, it sounds good...).... Probably EQing spot mics to combine well with the ambient pair - maybe removing some picking noise and exaggerated mids form close micing the bass, some high shelving on close miced sax to remove harshness exaggerated air and clap noises, etc.
Maybe you will only need to add a little bit of spot mics in the mix and the main picture can come from the well positioned ambient pair...

best

P.S. post your recording when done if you can...

[pkautzsch]

As I've found a pair of MK21 to be a great main/room pair, I'd start off with that. Maybe 1 ft spaced and slightly angled?
Your 414s would probably be good for everything, so you need to think about where to use the MKHs. I'd start with a not too close MS pair for the piano and if that works well use the 414s for bass and sax.
You could still put the Rodes somewhere in addition if you have the time.

[phil.]

Thanks, a lot for some great ideas!

The panning comments make a lot of sense and I am sure I will try the MK21's as a main/room pair!

Could you reccomend some Jazz recordings with the same set-up (Bass, Piano, Sax) that are valuable to check out!

Thank you!

Phil.

[The Listener]

Joe Henderson's "Lush Life: The Music of Billy Strayhorn" features also sax, piano, bass & drums and different variations of this formation - duet, trio, etc. - it has one of my favourite recorded jazz sounds - ofcourse also the music... You could also check albums by pianist JON BALKE - different combinations, but great sound always and there are many, many more... oh - some piano /bass /sax moments with great sound on Greg Osby's "Inner Circle".

If you will use MS pair for piano - you can try it behing the pianist's head or not so near the lid - from the side - a litte higher up facing towards the interior of the piano - experiment - but you should probably not put the MS pair inside the piano...

[phil.]

That's great advice for the MS pair! Thanks!

I will check out the music suggestions you made....all of them sound very interesting!

The artist contacted me earlier on and said that he doesn't consider his music Jazz anymore.....so, the approach doesn't have to be strictly jazzy!

Anyone with some tips or tricks of how to create modern/ unusal sounds for a trio like that during the reocrding stage. Might be worth playing around a bit!!

Best,

Phil.

[phil.]

Hello,

just wanted to round this threat up with a sound file and the way it was recorded.

I ended up using the Sennheiser MS pair for the room. The MK21 were a little too much for an after all not so good sounding room.
Sax was fairly loud all the way thru in the room, so I opted for the 414's inside the Piano and one MK21 on the bass as spots to compliment the MS pair. Also put a MK21 on the sax for the option of taking the room mics out and add some artificial reverb instead later on.

The sound clip is a rough mix of mostly spots with a bit of room.....Any comments are more than welcome?

Thanks to everyone who chimed in! thumbsup

Best,

Phil.

[The Listener]

I listened to it and it sounds nice already - I would use more ambient pair if possible in the mix - I miss some 3D as it is now.. and maybe some subtle EQing of double-bass to bring out some more details if needed - also - if ambient pair doesn't provide enough lushness and space I would add some high-end reverb on sax and maybe also a little of the same to the piano and bass...
It sounds nice and warm yet detailed - it still lacks just a little more space...

I'm glad if some advice helped.

best

[big country]

great recording
loved it

to short
just when I started to get into it
it was over

out of curiosity where the players stoned?

I kinda felt a little high while listening to it

its amazing how music/emotions carry

[phil.]

Thank you "The Listener". Yes, I agree! A little more ambience for 3D would be good! Probably some quality reverb rather than the room mics. The Sennheiser MS combo is great, but sometimes it just picks up too much detail. The finger and blowing noise on the sax is incredibly present even though the sax was at a fair distance!! The closer Shoeps MK21 sax spot somehow seems to disguise those sounds more naturally.

Japan is still quite strict on the old , so people are very careful with it! Stoned at a recording session is definitely not very common, but I am sure I can get you a copy for your own pleasure once it is done . Thanks for chiming in!!

Thanks a lot for all advice and feedback!

Best,

Phi.

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by phil.

Thank you "The Listener". Yes, I agree! A little more ambience for 3D would be good! Probably some quality reverb rather than the room mics. The Sennheiser MS combo is great, but sometimes it just picks up too much detail. The finger and blowing noise on the sax is incredibly present even though the sax was at a fair distance!! The closer Shoeps MK21 sax spot somehow seems to disguise those sounds more naturally.

Japan is still quite strict on the old , so people are very careful with it! Stoned at a recording session is definitely not very common, but I am sure I can get you a copy for your own pleasure once it is done . Thanks for chiming in!!

Thanks a lot for all advice and feedback!

Best,

Phi.

So if Japan is really strickt in those regards, khmmm, then your nation is naturally crazy (in a very positive way) - I just happen to know a lot of your "totally over the limit far out" bands that I like - Shibusashirazu, Afrirampo, Acid Mothers Temple, Boredoms, Ruins... it they produce those things without any chemical aids - my respect doubles (and I am not for prohibition - just respect really creative and crazy people that can achieve THAT state of mind without too much external help...)

BTW - try to add just a pinch more of the ambient mics, too - some blowing noise is sexy and cool...

P.S. When I speak of space I mean like this: www.satoration.org/Zarja_excrpt.mp3
It is a little larger band, but feat. also sax, piano & bass - the mix uses two sets of ambience mics - one was positioned far away at the live FOH mixing board and another closer to the stage (both ORTF stereo), the rest is spot miced... I used quite a lot of natural ambience + just a pinch of artificial reverb... I need to hear air around instruments...