Mics for M-S Recording

[cdog]

Curious as to what mics people like to use for this technique...

My reliable standard is a pair of AKG 414 TL IIs, and the sound is nice and even. But I've recently been playing around with using different types and brands of mics for the Mid and the Side mic with interesting results.

Right now I'm trying to capture a really fat drum room sound, where the mid mic gets somewhat blasted by the kick drum, and I've found the Soundelux U195 gets a pretty rocking tone mid mic sound with a KSM 44 as the Side mic. It sounds a little brighter than the two TL IIs and captures the cymbals nicely, although the stereo image isn't as smooth frequency wise.

Any other interesting M-S mic selections out there? I would be interested to try a Royer and a 421 together, frinstance.

[hollywood_steve]

No answers here, just another question. I'd like to ask about using ribbon mics (Coles 4038, Royer R121) as the Sides mic. I know that the Royer is supposed to have some amount of variation in response between its front and back. Enough to kill the idea of M/S recording? How about the Coles?

Thanks

[cdog]

The Royer does have brighter response from the back - I think it could be used in a creative manner. You can get all sorts of cool sounding stereo phase effects by using different types of mics in combination. Uhh, not for "accuracy", but for the sake of coming up with some interesting sounds.

That new stereo active ribbon mic from royer looks, umm, shall we say quite tantalizing?

[robdarling]

I experimented a lot with M/S and found that the big thing to watch for is the front/back frequency response differences of the side mic. Many mics are very different front to back in figure 8. One of the most reliable I found was indeed the 414, but the mic that worked the best for me was the Soundelux U-99. Very well suited to the purpose of m-s.

The Coles and Royers weren't very successful. The Coles was muddy and had holes in the image- my guess it has funny shaped lobes for the purpose- and the Royer was funny left to right.

Best,

r.

[0VU]

As far as I know, technically, the only fig-8 condensor mic that is *truly* bi-directional is the Sennheiser MKH 30; all other condensor mics are flawed in the symmetry of their fig-8 polar pattern.

Doesn't stop me normally using a Schoeps MK6 or MK8 though. I quite like having a different response that I can use creatively to manipulate the balance of the stereo image.

Ribbon mics are inherently bi-directional and can be made truly symmetrical but frequently they aren't. They have deliberately differing responses on the "front" and "back" of the mic; this isn't true of all ribbon mics. Some are symmetrical.

[Yannick]

I would maybe point to the fact that the Sennheiser MKH80 and MKH800 are at least as perfect as the MKH30 in this regard

If you want to pay 2300 euro for a side mic that is

[chriscavell]

I use a few different ones that I use for M-S...the standards: C422 and a C426B and a sm69 (how do the reissue's sound, mines one of the earlier fet's with the external pattern box...it's a little noisy and hot as hell...definitely a tone of it's own that rocks in some applications).

Sometimes, on piano for something like a live jazz recording, I'll combine a crown pzm on the inside of the lid and bring a akg se300b (can't remember the fig 8 capsule number right now) to sit right next to the element of the pzm...with the lid on short stick.

Other than those, I'll use a matched set of 414 EB's from time to time.

[jbuntz]

When the mics aren't matched you having different panning at different frequencies. Something to keep in mind. If you use a bring condensor with a dark ribbon, the imaging gets strange.

I just had a drummer bump some m-s overheads so that one of the mics moved slightly and the imaging got strange! It creates too complimentary comb filters in each speaker. The hi hat came out really weird.

[7rojo7]

Maybe the easiest to setup because both mics similar in form and you don't end up with a strange looking setup, Beyer M160 (HC) front address and Beyer M130 (8) side address, both ribbons. I don't like M/S for anything but a format that will undoubtedly be broadcast and downmixed to mono, there are many other ways to mic things up that sound better and when I do M/S for broadcast I use a half omni as the M. Most of the time it's for atmosphere, sound effects etc... and you don't need the detail of real stereo. In mono all that remains is the M, so that one better be good.

[Mike Clayton]

I've had good results using an AKG 422. I believe they use a similar capsule to that of a 414 (somebody put me right if I'm wrong, as I frequently am).

It's great in the area micing situation, despite being an LDC. Because both capsules are working fully on-axis the stereo image generated after processing is very good.

[0VU]

Yannick:
I would maybe point to the fact that the Sennheiser MKH80 and MKH800 are at least as perfect as the MKH30 in this regard

Sorry Yannick, I wasn't as clear as I should've been in what I was talking about.

The MKH 30 is the only truly bi-directional condensor mic in that it's the only one to achieve true bi-directionality using a single diaphragm. The MKH 80 and MKH800 are more conventional dual diaphragm designs like most other switchable pattern condensor mics. Whilst they're excellent mics, they use a double cardioid capsule rather than a true bi-directional one.

But they are beautiful mics. Though I know what you mean about the price

[davebl@dircon.c]

MKH 30/40 combination, this is the defacto film recordists kit. Ive also used them as a main pair for orchestral work, and they give much better and more detailed image than a pair of 414's when I A/B them on a flown rig.

Interesteingly there is one down side to the MKH mics used in a rycote basket in very hot sun, the sort of climate in Florida. The mics mute when they get very hot, just cease to give any output. I didnt measure the temptarure of them but too hot to hold comfortably. The Rycote seems to act as a sort of green house. The 40 or 60 fails first then the 30. Just put them back in the cool for a while and they soon come alive again and no perment issues so far as I can see. The easy work around it to throw a sheet over them between takes and keep the sun off them.

[Jay Kahrs]

Funny that nobody mentioned the Shure VP88...a disrespected stepchild? Well, maybe it is next an SM69 variation but I dig mine a bunch.

[lampmeister]

Yeah, I was looking at a Shure VP88 a few months ago but couldn't find much info on it. Now I'm starting to think it might be a bit of a sleeper (Shhhhhhh!). I guess some will be put off by the self-noise figures (can't remember what exactly it is at the moment).

Feel free to tell us more Jay....

[Petimar]

I've had good luck with the Royer SF12. The front and back are not different as on the R121.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by lampmeister

Yeah, I was looking at a Shure VP88 a few months ago but couldn't find much info on it. Now I'm starting to think it might be a bit of a sleeper (Shhhhhhh!). I guess some will be put off by the self-noise figures (can't remember what exactly it is at the moment).

Feel free to tell us more Jay....

It is a little noisy next to some of the hi-fi Sennheisers & AKG's that cost four times the money...but IMO's it's entirely usable for most anything in a rock/pop context and the guy I bought mine from was using it with a Tascam porta-dat for field recordings, mostly dialog and things like that.

Anywhoo, I really dig the simple set-up. Hang it on a stand, aim it around...the M/S decoder is built in so there's no external splitters or any other 'crap' to deal with...just plug in a pair of XLR's and away you go!

I've used it a few times as an overhead on drum kit and as a room mic at a club remote, I think I whipped one out for a percussion rig overdub too but can't remember if I picked that or something else...it was too many brain cells ago!

I haven't had a chance to try it on much else yet but I'm going to be recording 'hindahoo' on the head of a song sometime this week...an interesting combination of singing, scatting & blowing across a small bottle for a whistle tone. Since it's the hook/head of a song, stereo should give it some size and space and I'm sure the VP88 will do well.

But yeah, it IS a bit of a 'sleeper' microphone. Amazing bang for the buck IMO.

[Reptil]

I got some good results from a pair of Beyerdynamic MC740.
figure of eight pattern is pretty consistent.

[loujudson]

I get quite nice results with a pair of AT 4050s. I use them this way mostly for live concert classical style, and never noticed a difference in the two sides as figure 8...

lou

[rufus13]

A buddy recently bought a new VP-88, when positively impressed with a visiting producers' older VP-88. The All-In-One nature of it, with optional M-S decoding in the mic body, and compact capsule/head size, make it well-exceed the requirements of rawk/punk production. Used as drum OH, room-tone, and potential not yet fully explored.

I've heard one person (compulsive audiophile, obsessed with wire type) say terrible things about this model, but he may have used a damaged one? With my ears, not terrible ever and sometimes just right.

AT4050 is the only figure-8 in the AT stable. Works fine as a pair in M-S or Blumlein crossed pair. I want an MKH-30, too, but will settle for borrow/rent sometime.

kk.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Yannick

I would maybe point to the fact that the Sennheiser MKH80 and MKH800 are at least as perfect as the MKH30 in this regard

If you want to pay 2300 euro for a side mic that is

It should be, but it's not, at least according to Sennheisers own specs. The MKH 30 is a rare mic in terms of fig 8 performance, however there are many mic's out there that can successfully be employed as a side mic, for me the main criteria is uniformity between the front and the back.

Regards



Roland

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Yannick

If you want to pay 2300 euro for a side mic that is

I just paid 1100 for an MKH 80... But I'm sure it'll have other uses than just being an S mic...
Would never consider spending money on a pure Fo8, though.

Daniel

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Roland

It should be, but it's not, at least according to Sennheisers own specs.

True, but according to these specs, the difference is rather small...

MKH 80:

MKH 30:

[Roland]

Originally Posted by d_fu

True, but according to these specs, the difference is rather small...

MKH 80:

MKH 30:

he response graph is totally different too. Both share the same family heritage, but I've always thought the MKH 80/800 were relatively expensive. Horses for courses.

Regards


Roland

[Mitch Manger]

I own the Schoeps MK6 and MK41 capsules, but have never used them in humid weather (I live in Arizona). I was thinking I might also get those Sennheiser MKH 30 and 40 since I have heard from everyone that the Schoeps do not fare well in humid settings, and have heard that the Sennheisers do fare well in humidity and have a lower noise level than the Schoeps (hard to believe).

But it would be better if I didn't have to buy an extra pair of mics for the exact same purpose...Are there any Rycote setups or mic covers/windshields/windjammers that incorporate a desiccant into the blimp in a noiseless fashion (unlike shaking pieces of silica gel), so that my Schoeps can stay dry? Suggestions would be MUCH appreciated.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Mitch Manger

and have heard that the Sennheisers do fare well in humidity and have a lower noise level than the Schoeps (hard to believe).

Well, the Sennheisers just don't have a noise level at all...
They are unbelieveably quiet. Add to that a high sensitivity (40 mV/Pa for the MKH 80,, around 25 for the others), and you won't be able to hear any noise from the mic, even in somewhat unrealistic test setups.

Daniel

[mosrite]

I own the Schoeps MK6 and MK41 capsules, but have never used them in humid weather (I live in Arizona). I was thinking I might also get those Sennheiser MKH 30 and 40 since I have heard from everyone that the Schoeps do not fare well in humid settings, and have heard that the Sennheisers do fare well in humidity and have a lower noise level than the Schoeps (hard to believe).

I experienced this myself for the first time whilst recording in the Austalian summer. Got the pops and the clicks and had to stop the session for 30 minutes or so. They are such beautiful mics otherwise that I can forgive them for that. But I imagine if on a film shoot or a live recording if it happened it wouldn't be quite so forgivable...

[dingo]

Here are a couple of posts from David Josephson about the Schoeps humidity issue. Thought some of you may find the info useful.

"schoeps humidity report " ramps, Jul 6 1998:

"Tomaras:

>>Why are Schoeps mics so much more prone to humidity problems than other
>>microphones? Has Schoeps decided that they would sacrifice quality in some
>>way by engineering their way around the problem?

Kludge:

>Because they are externally polarized with a fairly high polarization
>voltage. In fact, they are less prone to humidity problems than a lot
>of the externally polarized mikes (just try the Neumann MKH 84 in a
>humid place some day), but a lot more common in the film industry than
>the others.
>You can drop the polarization voltage and then you get lower output, which
>is what Beyer has done on some of their externally polarized mikes, which
>run with only around 45V on the diaphragm. This sacrifices S/N, though.

I don't think that dropping the voltage from 60 to 45 will change
anything. If there is a leakage path, you'll hear it.

This may seem heretical, but you guys really ought to know what is going
on. Fact to remember: water does not conduct electricity. However, the
slightest bit of ionic contaminant (alkali or acid) while nonconducting
in a dry state, added to water makes a nice noise generator.

What happens when you toast the mic on a 5K is that some of the water
gets driven off, maybe enough that the deposit is no longer conductive.
But it's not a permanent fix. Storing the mic in a box with little
silica gel packets is approximately useless, unless the box is sealed
and you have recently (past few days) dried out the silica gel. But
again, even if you store the mics in a vacuum, if there is some junk
that collects water, it will make noise as soon as you bring it into the
real air again.

In nearly every case I've looked at, the problem is fingerprints and
other crust on the surface of some insulator, which *then* combines with
airborne water vapor to make a conductive path.

Schoeps mics seem to be particularly susceptible because of the nature of
the connector, which must carry polarize voltage, signal, power for the
Colette electronics, and a test input. They have done the best that can
be done in the circumstances by making the surface path long (that's
what all the ridges are for in that connector). But it makes the connector
attact all kinds of junk which gets wedged down inside each time the
capsule is removed.

Recommended fix: get some fresh 91 or 99% isopropyl alcohol (don't use
denatured, or <91%) and a fairly stiff small artist's brush, like a
#1 or #2 bristle brush for oil painting (about 1/4" across). First wash
the brush out in several rinses of alcohol (pour alcohol into a dish,
wash the brush, then discard the alcohol and wipe the dish dry). Now
use fresh alcohol and the brush to scrupulously clean the white plastic
insulators on both the capsule and the preamp, and let them air dry.
DO NOT TOUCH THE PLASTIC after that. Don't ever pour anything back into
the alcohol bottle, and keep it uncapped for as little time as possible.
If this doesn't work, it's true, your best bet is to send them back to
Jerry Bruck and have them disassembled and cleaned by people who can
put them back together *and* test to see that they did it right.

--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / d...@josephson.com"



" Humidity and condensor mics" rap, Jun 27 1999

">With the humidity levels rising, I've been thinking about protecting my
>condensor mics. I remember seeing some of you mention using silica gel to keep
>the moisture levels down. I have a few questions:

Humidity alone does not cause a problem. There must be some sort of ion
source, like dirt, salt, etc. on the insulating surface that becomes
conductive when it gets damp. Keep the internal parts of the mic clean
and it won't be a problem. When I visited the Schoeps plant recently, I
saw their humidity chamber -- a glass box with a layer of water kept warm,
so it was 95% or so humidity all the time. All mics leaving the plant are
left in there for 24 hours and tested for noise before and after. No
contamination, no noise.

*snipped the rest.. mainly about dessicants*

--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / d...@josephson.com"

[Mitch Manger]

Thanks all for your input!!! Those were all interesting to hear, and thanks especially to dingo for sharing that email from Josephson.

Dingo, can you please post the part about dessicants here, or PM it to me?

I heard all this humidity banter initially from Bernie Krause, in an interview wherehe trashes the Schoeps when it comes to humid weather.
Electronic Musician Interviews Bernie Krause about field recording techniques |
Recording and experiencing the sounds of nature through mics and headphones.

Do any more of you ever feel the need in extreme cold/hot or humid weather to switch to a different pair of mics due to high noise levels or other consequences of the Schoeps supposed "sensibility"? Mosrite, I've never heard of that happening due to heat alone (was it dry or wet that day in the Aussie summer?). I live in Arizona, so that has me worried....

It seems ridiculous to me to need a different M/S set for both outdoors and indoors, but I'd like to hear more opinions before I decide to get an "outdoors/extreme" M-S set of Sennheiser MKH30/40 in addition to my Schoeps. Would you do it?



Also, here's a message I got back from Dagobert at Schoeps:

"It is advisable to keep the microphone in a warm and dry place before using it in humidity. Doing the opposite (storage in a cold and humid place) causes condensation of water when the microphone is taken to a warm (and humid place) and hence severe problems will be the consequence.
If you place a heating resistor with just a few watts close to the microphone, it will be kept dry and no noise will occur. If this is a reasonable option, you should try it."

But does proper care alone (silica gel in a Pelican case) prevent these noise problems with Schoeps if I record in a cold or humid environment? Do any of you have examples/pictures/descriptions of these "heating resistors" Dagobert mentions, if you use them?

[dingo]

Originally Posted by Mitch Manger

Dingo, can you please post the part about dessicants here, or PM it to me?

Here's the rest of the post:

"If you have some mics that can't be cleaned and get noisy when damp, you need
the kind of gel with a built-in indicator that turns blue when it's dry and
pink when it's not. One source of this, if you live near a little airport,
is the plugs that are shipped in the spark plug holes of airplane engines
from the factory. There's about a tablespoon in each one.

>1. Where can I buy this stuff? I guess I could buy 30 pairs of sneakers and
>get the packet out of each box... but there must be an easier way
>2. If the silica gel comes unpackaged, what should I put it in to keep it out
>of the mics? I assume I need some sort of very pourous bag.

Yes, or use the above mentioned screw-in cartridges.

>3. How much do I need for each mic? I'll be putting them in ziplock bags to
>seal them. Any adverse effects to uing ziplocks? (ie solvents released from
>the plastic that will damage my mics, etc)

Enough that the sealed volume is such that the gel can stay blue. If it
takes too many recharges of the gel to keep it blue, you need more gel.

>4. How often do you need to bake the silica to get the moisture out, and how
>do you go about doing so?

Depends on how humid the air is, and 150-180 degrees F oven again until the
crystals turn blue.

--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / d...@josephson.com"


And here's a link to the entire discussion:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...b82b9c6f26e673

And a link to the previous discussion, if anyone needs it:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...f721d3297e0b91

[rufus13]

The very cheapest dessicant material is gypsum wall board. Bake it in a home oven or a toaster oven for several hours and let it cool in closed (sealed) container, and it will suck up plenty of humidity. It's hard to tell when it stops working without some kind of indicator.

Dessicant crystals can be bought for a few dollars in a 2 pound package at a flower shop. They may not be the kind that change from blue to pink, but they work, and can be "recharged" by baking in an oven.

Don't let dust from wallboard or crystals get inside microphones.

All resistors are "heating resistors", but the kind that would be effective would be sized to dissipate about 20W over a warming plate. Consider physical size, what the power supply voltage would be (12/24v DC, or 120 AC?), and the continuous rating of the resistor. I pulled a metal tube from an old Hammond organ that plugged into a 120v wall outlet that contained a 25W resistive heater. The brand was "Damp-Chaser" and was probably sold in the early 1960's. Still works fine.

If you are going to install a heater in a case, it will need some ventilation as well. Look at the built-in heaters found in medium and large steel/concrete safes for inspiration.