humbled......and a lesson for everyone

[hollywood_steve]

I just spent the evening viewing the opening night performance of a local community opera production. "Community" has a different meaning in NYC or LA than it does just about everywhere else. Reading the bios of even the bit players, they all seem to have been THE musical prodigy of their mid to large city someplace. And this isn't really news to anyone, but all of these local hotshots move to LA (or NYC) where they end up as little fish in the big pond, or in this case, community Opera. My point being that it is easy to forget just how incredibly talented some people are. There were a few scenes were all 8 members of the cast combined to sing a chord, and the effect, even 50ft back, was truly awesome.

And my big revelation, while hardly original, is no less important. After listening to these wonderfully talented people sing complex lines flawlessly, I can't imagine why any of us would ever waste a minute of our lives working to fix an out of tune performance. The people in tonight's production aren't highly paid pros, every one of them has some type of day job, and yet none of them needs help to sing in tune. And there are countless folks like this in every big city and little town in the world. So why are we recording clowns who can't sing? And instead of finding people who can sing, companies think we're stupid enough to buy a piece of technology to help us record people who have no business setting foot in a recording studio (without a mop in their hands.) No more.

There are so many truly, exceptionally talented people that deserve a chance to be recorded well, screw the poseurs.

[De chromium cob]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
I can't imagine why any of us would ever waste a minute of our lives working to fix an out of tune performance.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Remoteness]

Don't let the digidesign folks find out about this.

Pop = Youth market

How many performing on the opera production were attractive 16-22 year old potential magazine 'cover stars' without an ounce of fat on them?

None I would warrant..

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Jules
Pop = Youth market

How many performing on the opera production were attractive 16-22 year old potential magazine 'cover stars' without an ounce of fat on them?

None I would warrant..

And how may reading this forum enjoy listening to 16-22 year old potential magazine 'cover stars' without an ounce of fat on them? Are we to the point that we accept that recording what we wouldn't buy is the norm? A long way from Tommy Dowd, ain't it?

[hollywood_steve]

Originally posted by Jules
Pop = Youth market

How many performing on the opera production were attractive 16-22 year old potential magazine 'cover stars' without an ounce of fat on them?

None I would warrant..


no 16 year olds, but none over 30, either. And you would kill for any of the 4 females....

but WTF does this have to do with anything?

I'm now on the wrong side of 40 and can't see why anyone who's been out of college for more than a couple of years would want to work on teen queen crap? Engineering only makes sense if you really enjoy what you are doing as there are LOTS of better ways to make MUCH more money.

Just fighting pop musics corner!

Every studio owner has a chance to 'make a difference' - Hats of to those that try to or give inspiration.

So hats off to ya Steve!

[gregrw]

I don't know how, or if, this fits in, but what the hell...

Yesterday I had a really good session. It wasn't live or on-site but right in my apartment. The act was an acoustic-folky kinda thing; two acoustic guitars, two singers, one electric. They specifically requested analog, which was interesting. I used the TSR-8. (Yeah, yeah, a Studer it ain't, but we all liked it! :- )

We were talking about Pro Tools, auto-tune, all that. We pretty much agreed that once you start cutting 'n pasting every single thing, you're not doing music, you're doing graphic arts. Well, at least for their type of music, anyway. There's something to be said for those whose instrument *is* their computer...but to fix every last note, every chord, every last drumbeat...

They were being self-critical about their pitch, and were jokingly wondering why we didn't just auto-tune it! (The fact that I don't have anything computer based was one factor...)

We overdubbed vocals and electric, but didn't do much by way of punching in. ("Screw it, I'll just do it over!") Certainly, we didn't punch in every note, as I have had to do many a time.

And their ages: the electric guitarist (and assistant engineer on this project) is 27, one acoustic player/singer is 25, and the other is 20. (The 25 y.o. and 20 y.o. are boyfriend/girlfriend, so they were really on the same page.)

Actually, most of the groups I record are rock bands, and they just go right to tape, with minimal punches, no computer stuff. So, I guess there's hope. Music is very much alive, and there are plenty of people out there who can play!

-GRW

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
After listening to these wonderfully talented people sing complex lines flawlessly, I can't imagine why any of us would ever waste a minute of our lives working to fix an out of tune performance.

The reason is the fact that an artist bringing their manager's or their family's money to the table has become a major factor in getting signed.

Yes, this sucks big-time. Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye most likely couldn't get signed today.

[fifthcircle]

I feel stuff like this all the time- especially when I'm recording young musicians. I work around a lot of the local colleges (and occasionally high schools) recording performances and there are some positively scary talented folks out there.

--Ben

[John Hedger]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
it is easy to forget just how incredibly talented some people are. There were a few scenes were all 8 members of the cast combined to sing a chord, and the effect, even 50ft back, was truly awesome.

There are so many truly, exceptionally talented people that deserve a chance to be recorded well, screw the poseurs.

Steve, I would also bet that most of those eight singers have an undergrad, Masters or Doctoral degree in music in which they have worked long, hard hours for, studying under some of the greatest singers in the world...and likely many of them have ended up with non-musical day jobs or carreers.
I have a Masters degree in music composition and am doing the same thing I was before I got my degree...teaching private guitar students.
Doctors and Lawyers get a huge monetary return for their labors of study, but not many musicians are that lucky at all. However, these musicians are no less dedicated to their craft and art...and no less dedicated than Prince, Sting, or any of the musicians who have been fortunate enough to recieve some fame and notoriety with their music.

This is a refreshing post!! Good to see deserving talent get some due credit! Even if it is for a small community performance. It IS scary to hear how awesomely talented some of the local musicians can be.
Did you record that program Steve?

John Hedger

[hollywood_steve]

Did you record that program Steve?

No, that show was the opening night performance and I was there to scope out mic positions, etc. I am recording this Friday's performance. (live to stereo with 2 spots, "just in case.")

[Ted Nightshade]

Ignoring $$$ for the time being, there's that emotional thing. Sometimes folks got all the chops and talent and can nail it all, and it just don't grab me- seen this on the theater stage lots of times (Ashland Shakespeare Festival, they do other stuff too, these guys and gals are but GOOD!). Then I hear some out-of-the loop character whose thing just gives me CHILLS! and I want to retroactively bestow enough chops on them to make it happen... knowing that you can learn chops, but only life can give some of us that scary emotional connection.

However I almost always find that these "finds" have weird backwards justifications about their technical shortcomings and their cheapo gear, and get really defensive about it all... been burnt too many times that way, but maybe that could by part of "why".

Personally I'm horrified that anybody can get into these teenaged chicks w/o an ounce of fat- seems like a perversion to me. Best looking woman I know is a 37 year old bellydancer... now if she would just grow up...

[Inky Goddess]

hey hollywood, so nice to hear/read about your experience. i hope the performers somehow get to see your post; they'll be très stoked.

me, i'm an amateur singer; strictly karaoke, as i have no patience for band politics, nor any interest in "making it" in the music biz. i recommend all you critters check out some karaoke if you haven't already. you will probably happen upon some incredible singers that would never even do anything as organized as community theatre...just us plain ol' folks that like to do a few numbers, and have a few drinks and a few laughs.

re: the protools discussion...my entire life, until i got my first grey hair, that is, all i wanted to do was sing in a band. this was impossible, because i had the most severely paralyzing stage fright i can imagine has ever beset a soul. finally, about five years ago, i overcame my fear and sang my first karaoke number (smoke on the water, of all things!). much to my surprise, i got applause! and not that courtesy applause, either. it was such a rush, my alcohol buzz disappeared...but damn did that moment feel good.

my stagefright was all about this and only this: What If I Hit A Bad Note??? i took a few singing lessons when i was 18. i practiced at home, alone with windows and doors secured, with nothing but a cheap little cassette recorder for playback until i sang "SOTW" five years ago at age 36. i hadn't sung a note in front of people since i was 10, at a birthday party...and all because i was afraid to offend anybody with a less-than-perfect cover tune. imagine that.

funny enough, i was at another karaoke joint chatting with this guy that turned out to be an engineer, and he told me about protools. it was the first i'd heard of the thing, and i was straight-up appalled at the thought that dug into my brain...video killed the radio star, and now protools is gonna kill legitimate talent.

reading the stuff you posted about these punks that have the cajones to open their mouths in front of people knowing that they can't sing...it makes my brain hurt. and then they give you attitude??? finances aside, all kidding aside, i hope you guys do come back at them with, "let's do it again, i'll punch you in," and make them do it until they get laryngitis, or until they cry, or until they fire you...best case scenario: until they run out of money!

on the flip side...if they're gonna throw their money into the wind, you may as well be the guys standing downwind. but tell me fellas, dontchya feel like that really fine, 16-22-year-old titty dancer with not one ounce of fat on her, taking a twenty-dollar tip from the sloppy jackass that thinks he has the slightest chance of going home with her?

slutz, the lot of ya! don't ever change.

[Ted Nightshade]

Gimme fat... gimme fat... I crave FAT!

the good kind, not the doritos kind... the kind that's actually fuel.

[Ted Nightshade]

Oh yeah, and I'd like that fat in context too, on a beautiful woman...

[Ted Nightshade]

And if she can sing? Cool, have her sing!

[gpcramseysoral]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
[i]Originally posted by Jules
Pop = Youth market


I'm now on the wrong side of 40 and can't see why anyone who's been out of college for more than a couple of years would want to work on teen queen crap? Engineering only makes sense if you really enjoy what you are doing as there are LOTS of better ways to make MUCH more money.

With all due respect to an idviduals vision of what this industry has to offer you. I have found that the only guy's making stupid money in this bussiness aren't even in the recording business it's just a small part of what they do. Look at the investment to POTENTIAL profit ratio of a major recording complex. Not that impressive. So I would have to agree with doing it because you love it.

[NeoVXR]

seems we have a business of producers and pop kids here in middle europe.
there are a few serious artists and bands in the charts, but many seats are taken by something "in the box", compare it to the pure computer production. not technically, but producers and the industry have their paths doing the whole business among themselves, and singers are just kids, looking good and having no family lawyer who tells them what crap their contract is.
I can't say producers are not artists, but when only a handful of those are doing most of mainstream biz, and always repeating their old stuff with new kids, letting in no one who is capable to compose their own songs, some the same producers having major deals with the big five and the tv stations and tabloids are just joint ventures and have to play and advertise the stuff, well that's "in the box".
this might explain, why there are so many good singers and composers with no jobs.
on the other side, there is some elite thinking (I have this and that degree and played with mr. xyz), that is of course not understood by the public and often artsts are perceived as being arrogant and queer.
through the new style of the media, and the facilities of the internet, we are having an audience now that demands a close relation to their respective idols. so all these beautiful kids serve much better, because they are being selected for their open mentality and simple, friendly or even "bitchy" minds (depends on the market segment), that can win lots of customers.
the market by nature does not take responsibility to raise the artistic levels of its products. but diversity still is there,
even Prince is back !

but what I learn from all the good opinions here is that local artists and businesses should try to get back their places in the market. everyone wants to be "pro" and international, and all these "demo sound" discussions, but do we want to end up with a hundred artists that can fulfill all these idealistic criteria and all the world will drop their local contributions because the market is satisfied by the big 100?
try picture this: a village is buzzing all about culture and fine arts and all the stuff, but they look it in TV and buy everything from outside, and no one feels he or she has a chance to ever become as good, and - conclusion - they do not want to listen or support the half-bred trials of their own people. so they are like children fed by big industry, and not even knowing who they are. they want the biggest apples but have no clue how to grow them. why do they think they can afford them for all times?

to grow your own apples means you love your local artists because of who they are and what they have to tell, not because of recording quality and a 200,000 bucks video. there must be local studios and their work has to be appreciated, even when they cannot sound the same as Paisley Park or LA facilities. But still they can develop their own acoustic styles!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by NeoVXR
but what I learn from all the good opinions here is that local artists and businesses should try to get back their places in the market. everyone wants to be "pro" and international, and all these "demo sound" discussions, but do we want to end up with a hundred artists that can fulfill all these idealistic criteria and all the world will drop their local contributions because the market is satisfied by the big 100?
try picture this: a village is buzzing all about culture and fine arts and all the stuff, but they look it in TV and buy everything from outside, and no one feels he or she has a chance to ever become as good, and - conclusion - they do not want to listen or support the half-bred trials of their own people. so they are like children fed by big industry, and not even knowing who they are. they want the biggest apples but have no clue how to grow them. why do they think they can afford them for all times?

to grow your own apples means you love your local artists because of who they are and what they have to tell, not because of recording quality and a 200,000 bucks video. there must be local studios and their work has to be appreciated, even when they cannot sound the same as Paisley Park or LA facilities. But still they can develop their own acoustic styles!

Makes me think a couple of things- one, your English is really good! Also, about villages in Nepal I heard about where before the western media came in, everybody danced and sang and loved it. Now, apparently people don't dance and sing- they think they are not good enough to do that, that only the big star on TV is good enough, and so they look at dancing and singing differently, not as something everybody does, but something "stars" do, and the "stars" are better at it than they are, so they should stop.

Another thing- if the locals can be themselves, and really do something DIFFERENT, instead of trying to imitate the bigtime stars, then, and only then, can I really support the locals...

[Inky Goddess]

hey neo, amen to all that, brother.

the owner of cbgb's is famous for cultivating local talent. IMHO, we need more angels like that in the business.