New Sennheiser MKH8000 Series Mics

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Stefanizzi

If you want to support your argument take a decision: the two statements clash.

Perhaps, in a strictly academic and argumentative sense.

Run with this one.

More importantly, on axis response of those three patterns is largely the same and Ivo is close miking in a dry room.

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Obviously as all the mics concerned were superb mics the differences were subtle rather than large. Once they had been set to the same level they all sounded about the same on a quick switch.

This does not surprise me, given that these are all essentially the same direct-radiator technology - and is why the minor refinement of this old technology that has gone on since the long passed days when this technology was introduced is of little consequence.

When I come to listen to samples from this forum made with the microphones in question, my first reaction is simply that they sound like direct-radiators (be they ribbon, condenser or otherwise).

On this scale, the subtle differences are very hard to care about, since these subtleties are the least significant limitation when comparing directly to the source.

Andy

[Audiop]

Andy,

what would you say are the major weaknesess (is that a word?) in standard high quality mics?

Also, to what degree have you improved on those parameters and specs with your designs?


/Peter

[0VU]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Andy,

what would you say are the major weaknesess (is that a word?) in standard high quality mics?

Also, to what degree have you improved on those parameters and specs with your designs?


/Peter

Without wishing to spoil anyone's party here, and obviously only speaking for myself, would you mind taking this over to the other thread that seems to have been side tracked onto discussion of the wonderful world of horn loaded mics and unusual ideas about perception and acoustics, and not drag this thread off topic too. (Just my opinion of course.)

[VukOnCrack]

Ditto OVU's sentiments.

A number of threads have gone way, way off-topic of late in regard to these discussions. There is a geekslutz forum here, is there not? That may be a more topical place for some of this... and not taking any sides in anything that's been said or contested, but... Andy, you are openly pimping your wares along with your position. Fatigue is the best word that comes to mind to describe how I react to seeing another post discussing much of the same. It's nothing personal; Jim Williams can drive me nuts in this regard, too!

I have no intent to offend... just hoping to enjoy a better signal to noise ratio around here.

[aracu]

Sounds overly conservative, negative, anti-intellectual.

On the subject of Senn MKH I'd like to mention that the claim of the 800 not being affected by humidity is exaggerated, these mics can become disfunctional during humid seasons and can be fixed like other condensor mics by being put in sealed plastic bags with silicon gel crystals.

[Audiop]

Off topic??

I have a strong interest in MKH mics. I have heard lots of praise for them and I have also heard several very nice recordings with the old and the new line.

I finally decided to try a pair out and I have ordered a pair of MKH8020 which I will receive any day now.

Since someone is claiming this is old (and as I read it, inferior) designs I would like to know more about what can be done to improve upon these mics (if possible at all, that's why I ask). It was not ME who brought this up in the first place in this thread btw.

So.. if you tell me to bring this to another thread.. how do I handle that? Do I cut my posts in half using any sentences that contains MKH in this thread and continue with sentences that contains names of other designs in that other thread?

Someone posted clips of MKH8040 and Schoeps mics. Did you jump on him to? I mean Schoeps must be OT in this thread right??


I intend to participate in this thread and possibly posting clips of my MKH8020 mics (probably will order a pair of 8040 as well) compared to OTHER mics. Should I be prepared to get my ass kicked for that to? Bringing other mics into this thread and this discussion.. Talking about signal to noise ratio and stuff.

Relax and cheer up!


/Peter

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Audiop

So.. if you tell me to bring this to another thread.. how do I handle that? Do I cut my posts in half using any sentences that contains MKH in this thread and continue with sentences that contains names of other designs in that other thread?

Someone posted clips of MKH8040 and Schoeps mics. Did you jump on him to? I mean Schoeps must be OT in this thread right??
/Peter

He means that you've opened a door to someone filling this thread with a lot of off topic posts which amount to not much more IMO than a marketing ploy in a similar fashion that the colouration for classical orchestra thread - which was, again IMO, dragged so far OT from the OP's post that it could've visited the moon - by the use of this question:

Also, to what degree have you improved on those parameters and specs with your designs?

You can almost feel the floodgates open

[Audiop]

Guess I felt it was unfair somehow blaiming me for dragging this OT (which I don't feel i did nor was it my intention), but ok, I get the message.


Now back to schedule. In the comming weeks I will do some recordings with MKH8020 and QTC1 and will try to figure out how to post files here.

All in a good attempt on increasing the S/N! :-)


/Peter

[VukOnCrack]

Aural Reflect sums my opinion up nicely, especially with the words "marketing ploy". If not intended as such, some posts come across that way which can possibly undermine both the poster's stated intellectual position and his business agenda.

I tried to very carefully state that I was not supporting or rejecting any opinions that entered the discussions surrounding Andy's philosophy or product, simply that another venue for "some of this" (the operative word "some", not to suggest "all of this") might be more appropriate. For instance, when something has gone way OT for a good page or so, you could start another thread and flag it by posting a link to the new thread in the originating thread. I don't see how suggestions of blame ever entered those words.

I've never been called "overly conservative, negative, anti-intellectual" before. Certainly not in the years I spent getting my Ph.D. or anytime since. I WILL take offense to that one, but my rebuttal will simply be to reiterate my original intent of trying to keep some of these threads more readily parse-able and on-topic, not to dissuade intellectual engagement which is something I wholly support.

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by Aural Reject

He means that you've opened a door to someone filling this thread with a lot of off topic posts which amount to not much more IMO than a marketing ploy in a similar fashion that the colouration for classical orchestra thread - which was, again IMO, dragged so far OT from the OP's post that it could've visited the moon - by the use of this question:

You can almost feel the floodgates open

I will try to keep the floodgates closed in this case. If Peter is interested he can either start a new thread or email me directly.

If answering the question of 'colouration for classical orchestra?' with 'equal loudness & auditory masking' is dragging it OT, I obviously am guilty as charged.

It is unfortunate that there is no impartial authority on the subject who can raise these issues without an interest, but alas these issues only came up as a result of research which is directly related to my work.

Andy

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Was it about the monochord ? You can find some information HERE

Have I missed more questions of yours ?

Thanks for the link!

Do you build these yourself or can you point me to a good maker?

I like the sound of the finish/suomi kantele and this monochord reminds me of that. I have been thinking on building some kind of kantele or harp-like instrument for several years. The sound of your instrument is very nice..

Can you share more about your recordings with the MKH8040 and Schoeps in this thread? Mic placement? Do you add any reverb or is it the natural sound of instrument and room? I would guess the latter but sometimes it sounds like something more.


/Peter

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Thanks for the link!

Do you build these yourself or can you point me to a good maker?

I like the sound of the finish/suomi kantele and this monochord reminds me of that. I have been thinking on building some kind of kantele or harp-like instrument for several years. The sound of your instrument is very nice..

Can you share more about your recordings with the MKH8040 and Schoeps in this thread? Mic placement? Do you add any reverb or is it the natural sound of instrument and room? I would guess the latter but sometimes it sounds like something more.


/Peter

If you read the text of that CD booklet included in the link, you will learn everything (about the maker etc.). The Finnish cantele has not much to do with this instruments - it is very small, it has no resonating strings, you cannot shape the tones etc.

As for the position, I always find a wide AB the best:

No reverb etc. was used in these samples. Pure natural sound as recorded in my studio room.

[Tapas27]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Here are few samples to listen:

(few tones on monochord)

Sennheiser MKH8040

Schoeps MK21

Schoeps MK2


Just for a general approximate idea, nothing "scientific" (not able to play exactly the same thing again)

More instruments may follow, should there be an interest
Preamp: Thermionic Culture Earlybird 2.2
AD: DAD AX-24

I know that MK4 would be ideal to compare with, but I don´t have it here

Thanks for posting the samples.
Thanks also for all who were posting their comments to the results. It made me aware how different people judge sound samples. Be it their way of monitoring, their mood, the coffee they were enjoing .. . :)

Judging from the samples posted here, to me the 8040 has some magic, some silkyness that is like gold. In comparison both Schoeps might be a bit brighter, but in a way also more repelling. Not touching.

[Audiop]

I have used my pair of MKH8020 a little now. It sounds very nice but like the manufacturers graphs indicates it is slightly warm sounding and not really neutral timbre/tonality-wise. It's easy to hear that the potential is there though.

Like some piano track (was it Michael?) I listened to here at GS I felt the sound was a little warm, added some EQ at the top and the sound opened up.

Now side by side with Earthworks QTC1 listening with HD600/650 I felt I needed to pull down the upper bass/lower mid (especially with HD650) and lift the top. Doing that the sound was aproaching the openess and clearness as QTC1 but with less noise.

Both the HD650 and MKH8020 has about 2dB "bump" at upper bass/lower mid and used together these two gave a very dark, warm muffled sound but the result was very nice indeed with EQ.

I will get back with a more detailed report soon and I'll also try to post some clips.

Will receive a pair of MKH8040 any day now as well.


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Pretty critical - the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are matched to within 1dB for both frequency response and sensitivity.

My MKH8020 pair are basically matched to +/-0.25dB with a FR linearity of +/-0.8dB. Impressive even though I'd like the midrange to be flat. The deviation from flat is mostly about the shallow "dip" in the 400Hz-2kHz range.


/Peter

[peterwild]

Here are 3 samples, 8020 -> apogee trak2 -> lynx aurora 8 via firewire to logic pro8.
(never got fire card to trak2, try to order it 4 times . anyway i took gig also with royer sf-1 ->flamingo)
Those were recorded at gymnasium. My frieds had a gig (brass sextet)and I wanted to test those mics. Hum at background comes from air conditioner. Janitor wanted 60€, if he comes to take it off, so we left it on. In 2. and 3. third song tuba player moved from his place to the front of audience

http://cameratuning.fi/EPS/EPS-1-8020.wav
http://cameratuning.fi/EPS/EPS-2-8020.wav
http://cameratuning.fi/EPS/EPS-3-8020.wav

[ABBA]

Now side by side with Earthworks QTC1 listening with HD600/650 I felt I needed to pull down the upper bass/lower mid (especially with HD650) and lift the top. Doing that the sound was aproaching the openess and clearness as QTC1 but with less noise.

Hi Peter.

Thanks for your input. Interesting indeed.

How many dBs and at what frequencies?

ABBA

[Audiop]

HD650 benefit from a 2dB reduction centered at 125Hz or thereabouts, covering 60-300Hz or so. 8020 slightly less reduction but further up to 400Hz or so. I simply look at the graphs and try to mirror those.

The MKH8020 has a "bump" at upper bass/lower mid or if you will, a recessed midrange (400-2k). This paired with the off axis roll off of the capsule in the top octaves makes for a warm/dark sound compared top the more neutral QTC1.

I was aware of this ordering the mic but I had set my mind on learning to EQ the 8020 when neutrality is needed. Looks like a keeper but I must use it much more to know for sure.

I will also try to record at an angle (say 30-60degrees) and give the 8020 a full diffusefield EQ to see how that opens up the sound when recording at a distance.


/Peter

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I will also try to record at an angle (say 30-60degrees) and give the 8020 a full diffusefield EQ to see how that opens up the sound when recording at a distance.


/Peter

...I'm looking forward to your findings about this [would be interesting to use it with sphere balls too - but eq is a good place to start]

Peter - what are your preliminary findings about Line Audio CM3 [compared to MKH]..?

Mads

[Audiop]

To early to say much about CM3.

The basic sound at one meter distance is different to the omnis. I'd say CM3 sounds more similar to cardioids (not very surprisingly since it's -6db at 90dgr. and -12dB at 180dgr.).

Compared to the omnis (MKH8020 and QTC1) it sounds thinnner (which it should do, it measures flat at 30cm with obvious roll off at 1m) smaller (less reflections) and less realistic in headphones at least.

Please notice that this is for AB stereo at 1m. ORTF or X/Y, closer positioning and EQ is up next to try.

It's quite, not as 8020 but clearly less noise than QTC1.

QTC1 22dBA
CM3 16dBA
MKH8020 10dBA

I have a pair of AT4033 in my locker and CM3 compares well to those, and that is impressive considering the diffrence in price.

A lot more testing will follow and I'll try to post clips. It will take some time though.


/Peter

[mljung]

Thanks Peter

Mads

[Audiop]

Did some recordings of a grand piano in big acoustics (4s reverb)yesterday. This is new to me and I recorded at different distances (2 meter and down to 30-40cm) with 8020, QTC1 and CM3. Even though it was a very noisy hall the QTC1 noise was appearant as usual, think some slight noise was audible from CM3 but hardly any noise from 8020.

The 8020 sounded overall dark/warm, QTC1 more open and natural but the big surprise was the CM3 which in headphones at least produced a sense of being there.. more so than the omnis which gave a slightly diffuse sound.

CM3 sounded much better in these situations than at home. Should mention that I used ORTF on the piano but A-B at home.

The 8020 was angled slightly off axis when recording at distance to allow for "diffusefield-EQ" which likely made it even darker/warmer. QTC1 with same position and angle still was much more open and natural sounding.

When micking close (30-40cm above the piano, 60-80cm apart and slightly in front of the pianist) all three pairs gave different but surprisingly good and natural results. Here the 8020 sounded more well balanced due to micking on axis in the nearfield.

I still feel QTC1 is much easier to capture a natural sound with than the 8020 which seem to need EQ in most situations. I'm not ready to give up on 8020 but for sure I'm puzzled by the frequency response of these mics. Is it that hard to make a mic that is flat in the midrange? My experience with 8020 has made me start to think on trying Neumann KM183 as well. A pair of Royer SF-1 is on the short list also.

Why did Sennheiser voice these mics this way? This is similar to HD650 that has tonal colorations in the same range. Is it a compensation for mediocre gear with harsh distorting sounds that is so common?


/Peter

[Audiop]

I played around with some EQ and I'm really impressed with the performance from CM3. It is easily in the same level as QTC1 and 8020.

It's more of a card though so I will run it against MKH8040 when they arrive.

Miking ORTF at 2m behind the pianist and 2m up and with a little lift at the bottom and in the top I prefer CM3 to the QTC1 and 8020 (which was placed at the same position but in 50cm A-B).

Only listening in headphones so far I should add, I'm rebuilding my house so everything is a mess here.


/Peter

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Why did Sennheiser voice these mics this way?

Because of extensive tests with top recording engineers in real recording situations over many months.

There was a lot of contact with recording engineers in both Europe and the USA to get these right.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Because of extensive tests with top recording engineers in real recording situations over many months.

There was a lot of contact with recording engineers in both Europe and the USA to get these right.

I know you're a fan, but quotes like this don't help folks... Remember, this is coming from somebody who works for Sennheiser (Please John, just put it in your sig so it is obvious).

Now... For those that use Sennheiser mics regularly, you'll notice sonic similarities throughout their line. They may have checked with "top engineers" to figure out how to voice them, but much of what is being said here reflects the sonic footprint of all of their condensers.

As much as I love using Sennheiser's mics, I've always taken issue with the low mids and the mid range of their microphones. This goes from MKH20 to 40 to 80 to 800 and now with the 8000 series. They are great mics, but I've always thought there is something funky with the mid range. It is usually very musical and something that can be worked around, but in a room that has mid range issues, Sennheiser mics can definitely NOT be your friend.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I know you're a fan, but quotes like this don't help folks...

Why not?

A question was asked and I answered with the reason - that's all.

Don't read into it what isn't there - they are voiced like that because that is what was wanted after consultation with recording engineers - nothing more, nothing less.

It makes no difference whether I work with Sennheiser or not, that was the answer to the question asked.