New Sennheiser MKH8000 Series Mics

[Jim vanBergen]

Well, I've gotta say, I'm looking to pick up a pair or two of 8040s and 8020s. I have just finished paying off the two pair of Schoeps capsules and matched preamps I bought before the price increase, and have been doing opera exclusively for a few weeks with the responses from this thread in my brain every time I adjust a mic in the pit or near the stage.

Questions:
1) what preamps are you using with the 80x0 series? I'm thinking clean (Earthworks & Millenia) but also Rupert Neve 5012, which I think as a 'dark, character-y' pre sounds great with super-accurate mics on live-to-2.

2) what's the best place to get a great deal on a pair?

TIA,

JvB

[Remoteness]

JvB,

I just PM'd you about question two.

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I'm the opposite - I choose microphones for their *lack* of colour and character as I mainly record classical and want to record what the performance really sounds like without changing it with coloured microphones.

Also the lack of intermodulation distortion in the MKH 20/30/40 series and MKH 8000 series allows the subtleties to come through that are lost with other mics.

Perhaps that's why I like the MKH so much.

John,

How do the new MKH 8000 compare to the MKH 30/40/50 ie the MKH 8020 against the MKH 20. I've seen the figures but in terms of sound and robustness are they improved. Im curious as they are less expensive and usually you dont get something for nothing.

thank,

Dave Blackham
UK

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

John,

How do the new MKH 8000 compare to the MKH 30/40/50 ie the MKH 8020 against the MKH 20. I've seen the figures but in terms of sound and robustness are they improved. I'm curious as they are less expensive and usually you don't get something for nothing.

I have used the MKH 20/30/40 for over 20 years and the MKH 800 for about six years.

I have heard the MKH 8020 and 8040 on a recent school session - enough that I am getting two pairs myself; but I'm still in the process of sorting the cash out. But it will probably be this month as the UK prices go up on the 1st May (Euro exchange rate ).

Having had a small listen - the bass end is better on the 8040 (extends 10Hz lower) and still retains the magic of the earlier series.

Lower price is based around that they are designed for modern manufacturing methods where you can automate a lot of the work. The old series were designed in the early '80's.

I have not yet had an extended listen. I am hoping to record a piano recital with the 8020s in the next few months and will have a better idea then. But everything I have heard so far is great - which is why I am buying them.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

1) what preamps are you using with the 80x0 series? I'm thinking clean (Earthworks & Millenia) but also Rupert Neve 5012, which I think as a 'dark, character-y' pre sounds great with super-accurate mics on live-to-2.

I think you can make a case for either... I just used them this weekend for vocal soloists on a choral session for styles ranging from classical through gospel. The mics sounded great and I put them through Vac Rac preamps. I've also put them through my API pres a bunch of times too... The problem with the more colored pres is that the sound can get too dark- almost muddy or murky on some sources. This weekend was the first time I had changed out my 8040's for Schoeps MK4 mics. The room was really muddy and I happened to have my API A2D preamp. In the end it was too much. Perhaps if I had my Grace pres with me, it would have been a different story.

I have put them through really transparent pres and gotten great sounds I guess as mics go, these are one of the few "all purpose" condensers I've used. Just works on everything and can work well through just about any preamp.

--Ben

[mljung]

Does anyone have a larger ensemble and/or piano sample recorded with just a stereo-set of MKH 8020 [or decca tree]

Plush, your findings about the 8020 as opposed to M50 pair. Did I understand it correctly that you prefer the M50, for orchestra and if so why. What does the 8020 lack that M50 has [other than a different freq response and polar-pattern].

Ben did you ever try the 8020?

Best,
Mads

[Plush]

Originally Posted by mljung

Does anyone have a larger ensemble and/or piano sample recorded with just a stereo-set of MKH 8020 [or decca tree]

Plush, your findings about the 8020 as opposed to M50 pair. Did I understand it correctly that you prefer the M50, for orchestra and if so why. What does the 8020 lack that M50 has [other than a different freq response and polar-pattern].

Ben did you ever try the 8020?

Best,
Mads

Hello Mads,

An M50 pair is still king. That's for sure. The 8020's are great mics. The main difference is that the 8020 is darker and the M50 sound has more presence and is phatter. I like phat.

The M50 has more character and has one essential difference that makes it the king.
That is that the low brass in an orchestra is rendered with such majesty and ooomph by the M50's. No other mic does that. If you want that sound, you have to put up M50''s.

That said, I still use the 8020's on orchestra. Sometimes we have two orchestra recordings going on at the same time. They will provide an excellent result for you.
The better the hall, the better the sound.


8020's sound fantastic on piano in a good room.

[mljung]

Thanks for the answer Plush, very informative.

Would have been interesting if there was sphere-balls made for the 8020 that would give them more presence [I know 8020's are small; it should be part of their clamp/hanging system] Maybe this would unlock their full potential.!?

I have a pair of 4006TL and the Ape-balls makes them so much more versatile!

Mads

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by mljung

Thanks for the answer Plush, very informative.

Would have been interesting if there was sphere-balls made for the 8020 that would give them more presence [I know 8020's are small; it should be part of their clamp/hanging system] Maybe this would unlock their full potential.!?

I have a pair of 4006TL and the Ape-balls makes them so much more versatile!

Mads

As it turns out John and I have been busy in the machine shop this week making sets of balls for all our different omni's. We've made sets of 30mm, 40mm, 45mm and 50mm balls for Neumann KM100, Schoeps CMC, Sennheiser MKH 8020, and DPA 4006's.
We actually feel that the balls help the 8020's out a lot. The biggest problem is that the mic is so short that the 50mm ball almost covers the whole body!
We've actually been thinking about selling sets of balls for all the above mics. If anybody is interested, let me know. I'll post back later today with a picture.
(Picture added)


All the best,
-mark

[JEGG]

I may be interested in the spheres, it's good to see you making them.

For those interested, you might try the "pressure rings" that were furnished with the MKH20. The diameter of the mic is different (I think), but it can't be that difficult to find a soft washer (hardware) to place around the mic. These aren't the same as spheres at all, but they do provide a subtle increase of detail. They do this boosting the frequency response-but quite linearly (a shelf not a peak) over a mid range band of frequencies, perhaps 2-8 k or so. When combined with the diffuse EQ option offered on the MKH20s, they produce a result very different than you'd expect-in that case it is definitely a peak more along the lines of a sphere or peaky km130/183. You can probably find graphs somewhere on the Sennheiser site.

[matthewd]

Hi all

I've seen quite a bit of discussion recently about the Sennheiser MKH8000s recently and agree having tried these that they are excellent and probably the most versatile compacts in terms of the accessories available. I have also used the Neumann KM100 series and DPA compacts and they are also excellent and very useful although I haven't bought any yet. The only ones I haven't tried are the Scheops although I plan to have some of these for a session in May when we are testing a load of mics against each other for a permanent install at a college chapel in Oxford. At this quality it all becomes a bit subjective of course but here's the wildcard - I got a Rode NT6 off ebay for £100 today and already know the NT5s of which I have a few for general purpose duties especially for live classical work on outdoor stages. I wondered whether people generally consider the NT6 seriously on a par with the obvious choices mentioned above as after all, you could have 10 for the price of 1 at this rate. I plan to use them for recording speech in college chapel service webcasts but I might end up using them more widely on first impressions.

Matt

[mljung]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

As it turns out John and I have been busy in the machine shop this week making sets of balls for all our different omni's. We've made sets of 30mm, 40mm, 45mm and 50mm balls for Neumann KM100, Schoeps CMC, Sennheiser MKH 8020, and DPA 4006's.
We actually feel that the balls help the 8020's out a lot. The biggest problem is that the mic is so short that the 50mm ball almost covers the whole body!
We've actually been thinking about selling sets of balls for all the above mics. If anybody is interested, let me know. I'll post back later today with a picture.
(Picture added)


All the best,
-mark

Now that is interesting!

If I buy [and I'll possibly do] a pair of 8020 I will definitly purchase two of the balls [between 40-50mm]. But aren't the 8020 slightly triangular, were you able to make the correct hole for so it fits the mics perfectly? The microphone can be held at it's XLR connector if not otherwise, I guess.

How much are they and when will they be for sale?

Mads

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by mljung

Thanks for the answer Plush, very informative.

Would have been interesting if there was sphere-balls made for the 8020 that would give them more presence

These should be included in the system later - I certainly hope so - I'll have some.

Don't forget that this system is just the start - lots of other accessories and mics will be added over the next few years.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by mljung

Now that is interesting!

If I buy [and I'll possibly do] a pair of 8020 I will definitly purchase two of the balls [between 40-50mm]. But aren't the 8020 slightly triangular, were you able to make the correct hole for so it fits the mics perfectly? The microphone can be held at it's XLR connector if not otherwise, I guess.

How much are they and when will they be for sale?

Mads

The 8020 is actually cylindrical, it just looks triangular because of the metalwork.
The DPA APE kit is actually a pretty good deal at $500 and comes with 3 pairs of balls. I suspect that we won't make any for these mics. Also, I haven't seen the new price sheet. I suspect that this price will be going up.
The Schoeps KA 40 and 50 are a staggering $200 ea. We've been making these for ourselves for years and are figuring a set of 4 (30, 40, 45 and 50mm) will cost in the neighborhood of $300. Same for the MKH 8k's and KM100 mics. The only issue is that with the KM-100 series the 30mm ball is actually a little too small for the diameter of the microphone (22mm if memory serves), so it will probably be a
set of 3 instead.
All the best,
-mark

[DaveD]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

The 8020 is actually cylindrical, it just looks triangular because of the metalwork.
The DPA APE kit is actually a pretty good deal at $500 and comes with 3 pairs of balls. I suspect that we won't make any for these mics. Also, I haven't seen the new price sheet. I suspect that this price will be going up.
The Schoeps KA 40 and 50 are a staggering $200 ea. We've been making these for ourselves for years and are figuring a set of 4 (30, 40, 45 and 50mm) will cost in the neighborhood of $300. Same for the MKH 8k's and KM100 mics. The only issue is that with the KM-100 series the 30mm ball is actually a little too small for the diameter of the microphone (22mm if memory serves), so it will probably be a
set of 3 instead.
All the best,
-mark

Mark and all,

Showing my ignorance, but I'm interested in knowing the type of effect that these spheres would produce for omnidirectional mics and for Schoeps Mk2 in particular.

Perhaps a pm would have been more appropriate - not wishing to hijak.

Cheers,

Dave

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

As it turns out John and I have been busy in the machine shop this week making sets of balls for all our different omni's.
We actually feel that the balls help the 8020's out a lot.

Could you relay some specifics re. your experiences/applications of spheres to 8020s? Source material, ball size, room acoustic, how their use changed the effect from using only the 'untreated' mic, etc. Thanks!

[mljung]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

The 8020 is actually cylindrical, it just looks triangular because of the metalwork.
The DPA APE kit is actually a pretty good deal at $500 and comes with 3 pairs of balls. I suspect that we won't make any for these mics. Also, I haven't seen the new price sheet. I suspect that this price will be going up.
The Schoeps KA 40 and 50 are a staggering $200 ea. We've been making these for ourselves for years and are figuring a set of 4 (30, 40, 45 and 50mm) will cost in the neighborhood of $300. Same for the MKH 8k's and KM100 mics. The only issue is that with the KM-100 series the 30mm ball is actually a little too small for the diameter of the microphone (22mm if memory serves), so it will probably be a
set of 3 instead.
All the best,
-mark

Mark - about the construction of the sphere-balls

The DPA ape-balls have a nice tight fit [they use an o-ring inside a nylon ball] It's one new unit, no wobbling or play; the microphone and sphere is perfectly integrated and the sphere will not leave the microphone body, unless you want it to..! It really works.
Do you have a similar system, or what have you done; is it as good as the DPA's and what material do you use?

Mads

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by DaveD

Mark and all,
Showing my ignorance, but I'm interested in knowing the type of effect that these spheres would produce for omnidirectional mics and for Schoeps Mk2 in particular.
Perhaps a pm would have been more appropriate - not wishing to hijak.
Cheers,
Dave

Dave,
If you search the archives you will find many posts discussing the attributes of balls on omni directional microphones. The short answer is that the balls give a progressively more directional characteristic to the omni microphone as frequency rises. The onset frequency and amount of directionality are determined by the diameter of the sphere.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Could you relay some specifics re. your experiences/applications of spheres to 8020s? Source material, ball size, room acoustic, how their use changed the effect from using only the 'untreated' mic, etc. Thanks!

Well, speaking purely subjectively, it has a similar effect as with other omnis. It gives a little more reach and "zip" to the sound of a rather flat sounding omni.
This is a purely subjective observation, but I feel that the balls make the 8020 much more useable as a main mic. The extra reach and HF lift are a nice improvement when trying to dig out the back of an orchestra.

Originally Posted by mljung

Mark - about the construction of the sphere-balls
The DPA ape-balls have a nice tight fit [they use an o-ring inside a nylon ball] It's one new unit, no wobbling or play; the microphone and sphere is perfectly integrated and the sphere will not leave the microphone body, unless you want it to..! It really works.
Do you have a similar system, or what have you done; is it as good as the DPA's and what material do you use?
Mads

We've been making these balls for many years. We actually made some of the first prototypes for the 4006 more than 20 years ago. Our balls use the same O-ring in an internal groove system as everybody else. The balls are made of bakalite.
Right now I'm looking for the right box to hold a set so we can get the foam inserts cut.
All the best,

[mljung]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

Dave,
We've been making these balls for many years. We actually made some of the first prototypes for the 4006 more than 20 years ago. Our balls use the same O-ring in an internal groove system as everybody else. The balls are made of bakalite.
Right now I'm looking for the right box to hold a set so we can get the foam inserts cut.
All the best,

Put me on your on your list of potential customers - I'll PM you my details!

Mads

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by matthewd

I got a Rode NT6 off ebay for £100 today and already know the NT5s of which I have a few for general purpose duties especially for live classical work on outdoor stages. I wondered whether people generally consider the NT6 seriously on a par with the obvious choices mentioned above as after all, you could have 10 for the price of 1 at this rate.

Look around the forum a bit. Tony F had good things to say about them.

FWIW: Since you are familiar with the NT5's, the NT6's should sound exactly the same, except the 6's are considerably noisier, no doubt because of the (permanent) cable between the capsule and mic body. I've spoken with Rode people on the phone (of course the veracity of this really depends on the specific person I spoke with), and they (he) said that the electronics were exactly the same. I doubt this just a bit, as the NT5,55, and 6 all have different noise figures-I can't remember at the moment whether it's the 5 or 55 that has the lowest noise. If it's the 55, I'd do a little head scratching as this is the one with two switches on the mic body. And you know that the capsules, including omni, are common to all three mics.

The mics sound pretty good, but I think they sound as if they're picking up only even harmonics, and not the odd ones. In that way, they sound a little "electronic" to me.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by DaveD

I'm interested in knowing the type of effect that these spheres would produce for omnidirectional mics and for Schoeps Mk2 in particular.

Try looking around the Neumann site for the SBK (I think) diffraction spheres. There you should find graphs for frequency response and polar pattern.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Try looking around the Neumann site for the SBK (I think) diffraction spheres. There you should find graphs for frequency response and polar pattern.

I can't find graphs at the moment - but the text says:-

SBK 130
The SBK 130 sound diffraction sphere slips onto the KM 130, KM 131 and KM 183 pressure microphones. While sounds coming from the front-half space are emphasized by up to 2.5dB between 2 kHz and 10 kHz, sounds arriving from the rear-half space are attenuated by 2.5dB max in the range above 5 kHz. Inner diameter 22 mm. For details see also KM 100 product info.

[bove]

I'd love to hear a direct comparison between the new Sennheiser 8020 and another standard omni(s). Anyone willing to post a few samples? I'm sure many people would be interested in checking out a few clips of the 8020 compared to something like MKH20, Schoeps MK2, DPA, etc.

[clownjuggles]

I would love to see a comparison with the DPA 4041 and 8020 on vocals :D

[Don S]

Yesterday I used an ORTF pair of 8040s on Woodwind quintet. Probably one of the best single pair of WWQ recordings I've done so far. My usual goto was the Schoeps mk4 or 21. But, I almost always lost presence on either basson or oboe. Not so with these! They seem to have a reach that makes up for the euphoric detail of the Schoeps. I'll try to post a sample. The 8040's are staying!
BTW-Ben used a pair as mains with an orchestra this weekend. Hopefully he'll post a sample as well.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I can't find graphs at the moment -

Not as detailed as the old versions, but a Neumann PDF file which includes polar plots and information about the SBK diffraction sphere can be found here:

Georg Neumann GmbH - Products/Current Microphones//

A reminder, too, that the MKH20 comes with a "pressure ring." The effect is similar, as is the affected frequency range. It certainly would be easier to make! I don't recall seeing documentation for the pressure ring online or not, it may only appear in the owner's manual for the mic-though the manual itself may be online. I haven't checked.

Jerald Egger

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by JEGG

A reminder, too, that the MKH20 comes with a "pressure ring." The effect is similar, as is the affected frequency range. It certainly would be easier to make! I don't recall seeing documentation for the pressure ring online or not, it may only appear in the owner's manual for the mic-though the manual itself may be online. I haven't checked.

This should be in the manual - but there is an error in teh Sennheiser site so the manuals are not on-line.

I have just looked and reported to Sennheiser Germany that the on-line manuals for the MKH 20/30/40 series are missing.

[d_fu]

Someone posted a link to very nice small mic holders for the MKH 80x0 or other small mics a while ago, but I can't seem to find it... Who can help?


Daniel

[summer_room]

this one?

go to post #18

-jon.

[d_fu]

That must have been the one, thanks. Seems I need something even smaller in diameter (for an Audix Micro mic).


Daniel