Recording Live Gigs

[GuitarRuss]

A small club owner wants me to record live gigs which would be paid by the bands so they could use as demos or sell or whatever. He wouldn't make money from it but feels it will spread his club's name.

I have some gear - he said he's willing to put in around $1000 to fill the spaces in what I have. I'd be recording all sorts of different bands, everything from a funk band with horns to jazz bands to rock bands.

Here's what I have:
Mackie Onyx 1620 w Firewire so I have 8mic preamps + 8 line channels direct plus the 2 buss. There's also a Mackie mixer at the club so I can use the preamps on that if I run out of mic preamps.

Fathead Ribbon Mics X2
MXL 603 X1
ECM 8000 X2
57 X 3
Beta 58 X2
AT4033 X1
Computer

What I don't have:
Bass drum mic - I was thinking of a D112...
Overheads - could use the Fatheads, was thinking of two Apex 205's
which would leave the fatheads for horns or guitar cab.
Hi Hat - MXL?
Toms - Should I close mic or just use the overheads?

Is there anything else I'm missing.

What would you use for what? Of course, I wouldn't be pulling out the ribbons for a punk rock band but there will will be Jazz trios etc.

With all the time I'll wind up spending on this, it's definitely not a money making opportunity, but it'll be a great way for me to get my Engineering/Mixing chops together without wrecking someone's album.

[cleantone]

You might want to check out the http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...ion-recording/ section right on gearslutz.

To quickly touch on some of the questions... I wouldn't plan to use ribbons too much out in the field. Better safe than sorry for your "definitely not a money making opportunity" gigs.

I wouldn't worry too much about a high hat mic off of the bat. One of your SM57's might be fine for live recording one though.

Close miking Tom's is usually a good idea. Especially loud bands. You'll get a lot of bleed of course. You'll get a lot of bleed everywhere with loud bands.

You'll want to record ambiance as well. Whether it is part of the mix or the crowd response, your gonna want something.

I assume your looking at this as a way to get some chops and have fun and not merely to help this guy get a rig going right?

[kittonian]

Personally, I'd spend a little bit more money out of your own pocket to get a nicer rig going so you can do this gig, as well as prepare yourself for other gigs to come. Alesis makes the HD24 and they are giving away the Fireport option if you buy one new. That's a very stable system and you can take the tracks back to your place, dump them in the computer and mix them properly.

As far as mics go, get a nice pair of overheads for the drums, a Beta52 for the kick, 57 for the snare/hi-hat, 421's for the toms, 57's and 421's for the guitars, an RE20 for the bass (and try to get a direct signal as well), SM58's or Beta87's for the vocals, and another stereo pair to mic the ambience (hanging from the ceiling above the crowd pretty far back). You'll need more than 8 channels of pre's and you can get a larger Onyx (or even better an Allen & Heath) console with 24 inputs with direct outs (this way you can eq for the live situation while recording dry signals via the Alesis - much better for mix situations).

[DSMrehearsal]

it depends on weather you are mixing the gig as well as recording it
I run live recordings using my mackie 1604 with firewire. but I use some externall comps 1176, stt1, for vox.

Overhead wise if the ribbons are fig 8 which i assume they are, beware of ceiling reflections , depends on venue size.

Personally I like a single akg 414 a foot above the toms from the front, less feedback problems than two mics.

toms sennheiser e604 very cheap and sound good.

kick beta 91, best live kick mic, very under rated/used plus no stand neeed

snare i like the beta 98, amazing detail on sticks/skin interaction, plus you can angle it to pick up the HH or not, depending on what you want.

Don't worry about using the computer, i've recorded for over 4 hrs straight to my Imac based system with out any problems (nuendo)

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by kittonian

Personally, I'd spend a little bit more money out of your own pocket to get a nicer rig going so you can do this gig, as well as prepare yourself for other gigs to come. Alesis makes the HD24 and they are giving away the Fireport option if you buy one new. That's a very stable system and you can take the tracks back to your place, dump them in the computer and mix them properly.

As far as mics go, get a nice pair of overheads for the drums, a Beta52 for the kick, 57 for the snare/hi-hat, 421's for the toms, 57's and 421's for the guitars, an RE20 for the bass (and try to get a direct signal as well), SM58's or Beta87's for the vocals, and another stereo pair to mic the ambience (hanging from the ceiling above the crowd pretty far back). You'll need more than 8 channels of pre's and you can get a larger Onyx (or even better an Allen & Heath) console with 24 inputs with direct outs (this way you can eq for the live situation while recording dry signals via the Alesis - much better for mix situations).

If I had more money I would have bought the bigger Onyx so the Alesis is definitely out for now. I'm sure it is a great option, for some, but I'm in the budget camp for now. If my skills and resulting income increase because of this, I'll spend more money, but right now I'll have to do with what I have. I can use the club's Mackie mixer for mic preamps, but this will be more work.

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by DSMrehearsal

it depends on weather you are mixing the gig as well as recording it
I run live recordings using my mackie 1604 with firewire. but I use some externall comps 1176, stt1, for vox.

Overhead wise if the ribbons are fig 8 which i assume they are, beware of ceiling reflections , depends on venue size.

Personally I like a single akg 414 a foot above the toms from the front, less feedback problems than two mics.

toms sennheiser e604 very cheap and sound good.

kick beta 91, best live kick mic, very under rated/used plus no stand neeed

snare i like the beta 98, amazing detail on sticks/skin interaction, plus you can angle it to pick up the HH or not, depending on what you want.

Don't worry about using the computer, i've recorded for over 4 hrs straight to my Imac based system with out any problems (nuendo)

It's a very small club so the drums don't need live mics, only on the bass drum. I'd be doing live sound too, but usually the guitars and bass are loud enough so the live sound is mostly vocals, bass drum, acoustic instruments and keys. The Onyx has direct outs to firewire so I don't have to worry about the recorded mix while recording, I'll do that later - this is better for my experience level anyway.

I'm thinking simple, using as much of what I have already. I might have to buy some outboard preamps at some point though, I still have my two channel Bluetube so that makes it 10 mic preamps without the club's Mackie.

I'm thinking of using mostly the overhead sound for drums plus a Bass drum mic and one mic for snare and hithat. Also, maybe a room mic.
Bass guitar go with a DI because they already have that there. Mic the guitar cab. Bring out the ribbons only for really good horn players I can trust and use a popscreen.

What are great non-ribbon horn mics that are good for live too, so they aren't too expensive and are durable?

[henryrobinett]

This belongs in remote possibilties.

[cleantone]

Well whatever we tell you, go ahead and experiment and try all sorts of stuff. I've done this many hundreds of times. I understand that your not gonna want to (be able to) plunk down 10,000 to get started. Experiment with what you own.

You seem to want to or need to get a kick drum mic. Does the club own one? You could use an XLR splitter to share that with your own preamp and levels if you like.

I also second e604 for toms. They are easy, cheap, don't need clips, and sound pretty good.

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

This belongs in remote possibilties.

Oops, the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music threw me off, it always seems to be guys talking about recording choirs and glockenspiels in there so I haven't explored that part of GS the way perhaps I should.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

Oops, the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music threw me off, it always seems to be guys talking about recording choirs and glockenspiels in there so I haven't explored that part of GS the way perhaps I should.

Well, I guess technically a "rock" band IS acoustic music these days... It's not like techno or boom-boom club music coming out of a laptop!

Are thinking of multi-tracking the shows to be mixed later, or doing a simple matrix mix of the FOH 2-mix with some room mics?

I run the latter at most of my FOH gigs... anything from 100 person private party to 3000+ festivals, usually with a shure VP88 or some pencil mics, jam it through a Roll SuperStereo at 2:1 on the way to the storage medium or maybe 4-track it and blend the stereo mix & stereo mic afterwards...

That's usually sufficient for show documentation & "demo" purposes...

If it's a small venue (under 400 is small in my world) and I can't get everything in the house mix I'll grab a pair of post-fader aux sends & dial up a dedicated "board mix" on cans, feed that to the 2-track.

[AllAboutTone]

only way i like to record live bands is to have a remote truck, your gear is ok, i would have other choices on some stuff.

[cleantone]

only way i like to record live bands is to have a remote truck, your gear is ok, i would have other choices on some stuff.

Yeah. Tell the owner to spend that $1000 on a remote truck...

let's just answer the question as it is posed for the guy...

[Birdi]

And remember to leave headroom on your recorder, and on your input channels on the live board . Bands dont give you 100% at sound check. Had a engineer in the studio recently whinging that the band 'wrecked' the recording by playing louder at the gig than during sound check. Thats what bands do... the experienced engineer allows for this. (apologies if you are already aware of this)

also, the m88 is an agreeable kick drum mic. Seems to work on a range of musical styles. It's a bit of a stretch for me to think of the beta 91 as the best live kick mic, but do agree that it is under rated.

Doing these live recordings is great way of meeting bands too, might get yourself some studio recordings out of it.

B

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

only way i like to record live bands is to have a remote truck, your gear is ok, i would have other choices on some stuff.

Hmm. I like this idea. With the $1000 I should be able to afford a well used trailer attachment for my motorcycle and a few long cables! But what if it rains in the parking lot!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

Oops, the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music threw me off, it always seems to be guys talking about recording choirs and glockenspiels in there so I haven't explored that part of GS the way perhaps I should.

Well, that's not so...

We discuss all sorts of music styles.

Pop; Rock: R&B; Jazz; Classical; Choir; Acoustic Music environments & beyond, but that's not all.

This forum started as a Mobile & Location Recording Forum.

Recording on location whether it's live or a remote studio setting is what we're all about.

Live Performance, Mobile, Location, Remote, Teleproduction and Broadcasting is discussed daily.

Click on our forum TAGs.

Checkout the THREADs.

Do a few SEARCHs and see what we're all about.

Welcome to our forum!

Enjoy

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Well, that's not so...

We discuss all sorts of music styles.

Pop; Rock: R&B; Jazz; Classical; Choir; Acoustic Music environments & beyond, but that's not all.

This forum started as a Mobile & Location Recording Forum.

Recording on location whether it's live or a remote studio setting is what we're all about.

Live Performance, Mobile, Location, Remote, Teleproduction and Broadcasting is discussed daily.

Click on our forum TAGs.

Checkout the THREADs.

Do a few SEARCHs and see what we're all about.

Welcome to our forum!

Enjoy

Thanks for the heads up, you're right - after taking a closer look, there's lots of stuff of great variety there. I'll post this again in that section. Lots of very experienced tech and live recordists on that area of GS.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

Thanks for the heads up, you're right - after taking a closer look, there's lots of stuff of great variety there. I'll post this again in that section. Lots of very experienced tech and live recordists on that area of GS.

Very cool...

Oh, by the way, you are in "that" section.
I moved the thread over today!

I look forward to more of your posts.

Awesome!

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

Oops, the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music threw me off, it always seems to be guys talking about recording choirs and glockenspiels in there so I haven't explored that part of GS the way perhaps I should.

Without starting this whole issue up again, I agree with GuitarRuss. This forum name really should lose the word "acoustic" because I'm sure he's not the only one who came to the above conclusion.

Not all of us record glockenspiels and harpsichords, after all!

[Remoteness]

It would be very cool to call it (just) "Remote Possibilities" again.

I will bring this up to Jules the next time we communicate.

[Tone Laborer]

Originally Posted by Birdi

And remember to leave headroom on your recorder, and on your input channels on the live board . Bands dont give you 100% at sound check.
B

Amazing , but almost always true.

[mrufino1]

I do similar to what you are describing (original poster I mean) and you don't need a large investment to do what you are asking. As money comes in, you can always move up for sure, but experience is very important. You will read guys on here that talk about losing gigs to the laptop/ mbox crowd, and I don't interpret that as looking down on equipment, but saying that bands are trusting people with no experience, and one thing I learned QUICKLY about live/ remote recording is there are no second chances, so you need to know how to make things work and fast, how to deal with having backups, etc. "Guys, can you play the set again because I just realized the bass drum mic was not plugged in" won't work! I am in the low end camp here but have great respect for trying to learn to do things the right way, even with my limited means.
Now, to answer you question- leave your ribbons at home- when the bands start stepping on your mics as they set up (it will happen), you'll be happy you did. There are many good bass drum mics that are not expensive, all of the models mentioned will do well- I have the superlux "pro" kick mic and really like it, even when I do have some other choices. I will second the sennheiser e604's for snare and toms- they sound good but more importantly are super easy to set up and clip on and are very tough. I have had really good luck with the apex 435 LDC's on overheads, they are about $60 with shockmount and work well. At church, we have the mxl 603 mics and I think they sound good too, but I do not own them myself. The sennheiser 635 (I think that is the model) dynamic vocal mics are very cool and not too expensive, also very tough. 58's work too, although not my favorites. Get some 57's, etc. Don't forget to budget for cables (and duplicates), and stands. That stuff eats up a budget fast, is not exciting, but necessary! You may want to look at a rackmount computer, more reliable than a laptop. I hope that helped somewhat. As I said, I am in the same kind of situation and although I would love to someday be in a position to have a truck or something like that, it is most certainly not a reality for me now, and there are plenty of guys who have tons of experience who would refer if I was really in over my head.

[GuitarRuss]

Thanks Remoteness for moving the thread.

Also, thanks mrufino for all the "real world" advice. That was exactly what I was looking for.

[Jim vanBergen]

If you buy D112 go used as they are readily available since the beta 52. I still think the Audix D6 kicks both their butts hands down without trying...though any of them sounds good live or to tape(disc).

I'd get a set of good used mics like Senn 409s (609s) and Beyer M88s, M69s, M160s that can be used for recording both the key inputs & the sources you don't need live. I think after a good set of mics and cables --needs to be up to four vocals, three guitar cabinets, a big drum kit, no less than four DI's (I prefer no less than 8) I still want a set of mics that can do things like dobro, zither, banjo, fiddle, saxophone, trumpet, percussion, backing tracks, djembe, hamond organ/leslie, and three acoustic guitars.

While you might be able to do without audience mics right now, you'll eventually want to put up a pair of something...even cheap Shure VP64 omni dynamics can be killer room mics for a club, and will add a missing dimension. By the same token, I have a slew of omni condensers I always carry (got a big drum kit and not enough inputs? go 3 mic technique anyday!) and several large diaphragm condensers that fill in on everything from kick to vocal to "green bullet" radio sections.

Yeah, I'm a total mic slut...but then I'd rather have too many paintbrushes & options to paint the canvas.

Hope these thoughts help.

JvB