Back up for da78's thinking of MOTU and laptop...thoughts?

[cajonezzz]

We're using up to 32 tracks of DA78 for our remote recording gigs. We havent' used any kind of saftey back up as of yet.

All our tracking get's transfered to PT for mixing/fixing.

I'd like to skip the step....transfering, buy using a computer at the gig to mirror or "saftey" the Da78's .I'd then transfer those files to Tools at the mothership studio for finishing touches / mixing.

I'ts cost prohibitive to put together a Remote PT rig that will do the number of tracks needed so I'm looking into Logic/DP (own both) on a pwr book with xternal drive and a MOTU2408 mkii (or two for 32 tracks) The MOTU to my knowledge has 24 ch TDIF on board so I'm thinkingwe couldinstead of monitoring the Da78's directly we could send them to the MOTU via TDIF and monitor the MOTU on the console (O2r)
Am I barking up the right tree here? Anyone done this set up?

thanks alot

[Dave Martin]

Cajon, I'm torn between suggesting that the DA-78 converters are decent enough to use for both rigs (using the TDIF outs of the 78's into your DAW) and thinking that it might be better to have the DA78's and the DAW as completely separated as you can make them.

Will someone with more experience at running multiple recording rigs simultaneously enlighten us?

[paulhurt]

The MOTU 2408 requires a machine with a PCI slot (for the 324/424 board), so not really suitable for laptops.

Maybe you meant the MOTU 896? A pair will get you 32 tracks simultaneously, using 8 ADAT inputs on each and 8 analog inputs on each.

I run two 896s and a Focusrite Octopre (using its ADAT out) giving me 24 tracks, and will be going to 32 tracks shortly (though not with another Focusrite...). Driven by an older iBook G3 800MHz running Digital Performer. Recording to an external FW drive. No major problems.

Compared to an HD24 or an MX2424 and some mic preamps however, it can be a bit stressful. You have to do everything you can to make it a plug-and-go setup. This wasn't terribly easy in DP3.1 but has improved now that you can create custom template files in 4.12. Even so, its nothing like as quick and reassuring as switching on a row of track record selectors and hitting record. Yes, it does make life a lot easier when you come to transfer to the mixing rig (which here is a dual G5), but you've really got to keep your wits about you at the gig. There are plenty of pros and cons on both sides.

Watch out for some reports of poor or even unusable performance with DP4 and recent PowerBooks. No personal experience of this though - there doesn't seem to be a problem on my (theoretically much slower) iBook.

As for the mechanics of making safety recordings... crumbs, it gets complicated. A lot depends on the desk you're using, but you've got to be damn sure it's not too easy to screw up one or other of the feeds. Split everything before it gets to the desk perhaps? At the moment I don't record safetys, but even so, it's something I spend a surprising amount of time pondering.

Do give me a shout if there's anything I can help you with.

Paul Hurt
LX3 Recording
London

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by paulhurt
The MOTU 2408 requires a machine with a PCI slot (for the 324/424 board), so not really suitable for laptops.

Maybe you meant the MOTU 896? A pair will get you 32 tracks simultaneously, using 8 ADAT inputs on each and 8 analog inputs on each.

Right. I was actually planning on a Magma chassis for the card, and using the laptop. Hopefully that would allow me to use a mobile Pt rig in the future as well. The main quandry is as to whether or not I can tap the da78's for the signal to the computer rig.
I suppose the next step would be to just give it a go. The only problem, if it's possible to do in this fashion, is if the computer rig were to go down or have to re boot , we'd have no way to monitor in the truck.

Hmm *scratches head* theres got to be a way...maybe another split? ($$)
thanks for the response.

[paulhurt]

Sorry, I'm with you now (I really should have read your post a few times over before I replied!).

You could in theory use CueMix to route each input, however it arrives at the 2408, back out on a TDIF output.

However, I'd always be worried that if the laptop goes down, it'll not only take the laptop recording out, it could also take out your Tascams. Suddenly, it's actually less safe with the "safety" than without it. Although it's possible the CueMix setup will keep working even if the laptop doesn't Since it's all done internally by the 2408 (mkIII) hopefully once configured it'd stay put.

Don't have a 2408 here, maybe someone else knows?

If you have nice, private line level signals going into your system, I'd be tempted just to try making up a straight unbuffered parallel split. Ought to work...

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by paulhurt

You could in theory use CueMix to route each input, however it arrives at the 2408, back out on a TDIF output.


If you have nice, private line level signals going into your system, I'd be tempted just to try making up a straight unbuffered parallel split. Ought to work...

I'd really want to do it the other way - DA-78's and from them to the computer digitally (I strongly suspect that the Tascam AD's sound better than the MOTU converters...). But really, if it were possible to split the signal before the converters, that would be a better thing (except that the safety would sound diferent than the master).

On the other hand, how do you handle things like time code and word clock in that situation (keeping in mind that the whole point is to make the backup independent of the master)

[Remoteness]

Wow, 32 tracks of multitrack and no safety. Have you ever had a problem? Even with a reliable system like the Tascam DTRS machines, you are one lucky dude.

Most of our remote recording sessions are backed up in one way or another. Whether it's MX2424, ProTools, RADAR, etc., we always run a stack of DTRS. On video shoots we add a DA98HR to the DA78HRs as the lead deck for video sync and SMPTE timecode. Video shoot or not, we always run TC to both recorders. We have the safety chase the master. It makes life a bit easier when you're transfering overdubs, remixes, stems and/or a repaired track or section to the other system.

When total confidence is key, we set up a totally redundant system. Double splits, double mic pres, double A/Ds, double recorders, double console return inputs. We have done it with one set of mic splits and pres Y'd to the recorder inputs. When the sound of the different convertors are an issue we double up on similar A/Ds. Then, one multitrack feeds the main console, the other feeds a monitor mixer. If necessary, ELCOs can be swapped so either multitrack can feed the main mix console. We feed both recorders to the main mix console on gigs under 24 tracks.

I agree, the DA78HR converters are decent enough to use for both rigs and I also think it would be better to have the DA78HRs and the DAW completely separated. We have done (semi-backed up) recordings, running to the DA78HR directly then feed the TDIF output to the other recorder(s) or computer rig, but I'm not the most confident with this setup. When the budget is not there (to do it right), it's better then nothing.

Consider feeding both recording systems to your mixer. The laptop could go digital and the DA78HRs could be feed to the console analog as a backup if you lose the computer.

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
I'd really want to do it the other way - DA-78's and from them to the computer digitally (I strongly suspect that the Tascam AD's sound better than the MOTU converters...)

I think I'll call Tascam...seems as though there should be a wy to split AFTER the da78, digitally to another device. a TDIF splitter perhaps?.

now that i think of it, I'd definitely want to monitor the DA78's as the 'primary' and have the comp as the safety....I could always check via cans how things were sounding on the computer.

I'm with Dave that using the motu as A/D would not be an option.
We've even talked about upgrading conversion into the DA78's, although to my ears they've worked just fine for our live gigs.


I'll poke around and report back.

[Ted Nightshade]

FWIW, I had no luck with the Magma expansion chassis. Also it's noisy as hell.

[Fibes]

I'd keep the 78s and the CPU discrete. Meltdown on one no problem...

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by Remoteness
Wow, 32 tracks of multitrack and no safety. Have you ever had a problem? Even with a reliable system like the Tascam DTRS machines, you are one lucky dude.

Most of our remote recording sessions are backed up in one way or another. Whether it's MX2424, ProTools, RADAR, etc., we always run a stack of DTRS. On video shoots we add a DA98HR to the DA78HRs as the lead deck for video sync and SMPTE timecode. Video shoot or not, we always run TC to both recorders. We have the safety chase the master. It makes life a bit easier when you're transfering overdubs, remixes, stems and/or a repaired track or section to the other system.

When total confidence is key, we set up a totally redundant system. Double splits, double mic pres, double A/Ds, double recorders, double console return inputs. We have done it with one set of mic splits and pres Y'd to the recorder inputs. When the sound of the different convertors are an issue we double up on similar A/Ds. Then, one multitrack feeds the main console, the other feeds a monitor mixer. If necessary, ELCOs can be swapped so either multitrack can feed the main mix console. We feed both recorders to the main mix console on gigs under 24 tracks.

I agree, the DA78HR converters are decent enough to use for both rigs and I also think it would be better to have the DA78HRs and the DAW completely separated. We have done (semi-backed up) recordings, running to the DA78HR directly then feed the TDIF output to the other recorder(s) or computer rig, but I'm not the most confident with this setup. When the budget is not there (to do it right), it's better then nothing.

Consider feeding both recording systems to your mixer. The laptop could go digital and the DA78HRs could be feed to the console analog as a backup if you lose the computer.

We haven't had a problem yet....but I know that building the safety rig is paramount. As well as a UPS.
It's really just been a cash/gigs/ issue....this is still a start up endeavor.

Steve, where would be the logical point to do the second split? would it be after the PRE's and before the Da78's and Daw?. I was hoping to use the a/d of the da78's and go to the DAW TDIF from there.That wouldn't be a true back up though if the da78's were to go down...

I need a suggestion for a rack mountable Ups that could power us as well. We seem to be find with just one 20 amp circut. Like to spend as little as possible.

[Remoteness]

Originally posted by cajonezzz
We haven't had a problem yet....but I know that building the safety rig is paramount. As well as a UPS.
It's really just been a cash/gigs/ issue....this is still a start up endeavor.

Steve, where would be the logical point to do the second split? would it be after the PRE's and before the Da78's and Daw?. I was hoping to use the a/d of the da78's and go to the DAW TDIF from there.That wouldn't be a true back up though if the da78's were to go down...

I need a suggestion for a rack mountable Ups that could power us as well. We seem to be find with just one 20 amp circut. Like to spend as little as possible.

It depends on how serious you want to get about the backup. At times we have doubled up on the mic pres. One pre for every track we record to including the backup recorders. Usually we would split at the output of the mic pres. On the True System P8s we use the DSUB25s to one setup and the TRS connectors to the other setup. That system makes splitting at the output of the pres really easy. When we are using my custom 24 channel API 3124s we have a similar system. I've daisy chained the outputs to an ELCO90 and 24 XLRs. When we need to split out of the pres, the ELCO goes to one setup and the XLRs go to the other.

Not all of my mic pres are wired this way. In those cases we have built 24 channel ELCO "Y" cords. When we need to split a system with less then 24 channels we use our individual "Y" and/or "N" (also known as "Z") cords to do the trick.

In a pinch I have used the TDIF connections from the DA78HR and go to the DAW or other TDIF device from there. But I don't dare say it's a true backup.

Multiple UPS units is not a bad idea. You can install smaller UPS mounted in each of your racks. Then as time goes on you can include a larger 20 or 30 amp UPS system. That would be like having a backup UPS for your UPS'.

[cajonezzz]

your obviously doing it right. the back ups of the back ups.
We won't be financially able to swing that (unless we rent ) for some time. I've got some ideas involving the DAW back up, but need to get my ducks in a row.I'll be using it for more than a back up, It will serve as an onsite editing rig for me on some tech gigs i have comming up . Other wise , we'd probably just look to MX2424's as back ups.

can you suggest a good UPS brand? Model? I like the idea of multiple smaller UPS's in the racks.

[Remoteness]

Do a search for "UPS" in the Remote Possibilities Forum and you will find a thread all about UPSs. A few name brands were mentioned if I'm not mistaken...