good cans - are hd600 muddy sounding ?

[fatgaz]

Hi,

decide to treat myself to some good open cans, the options for me (UK) seem to be one of the german trio sennhieser / bayer / akg.

I have ribbon hybrid main speakers; I don;t expect to get the same quality open airy, fast and glare-free high end from dynamic headphones - I don't think I can afford to buy any STAX cans in the UK market, even though I will probably end up buying stand alone a headphone amp too.

problem is that the AKG K701 has a reputation for poor bass;
the bayers (770,880,990) seem to have too much bass; a smile-eq curve ?
the sennheisers (580,600,650) might be OK but are they too warm and muddy ?

I do have an old (20 years ?) pair of sennhieser hd480 cans which I find far too warm sounding and with much too much high treble / lack of air. the bass is very congested and muddy. (they may be getting old ?)

are my HD480's indicative of the senheiser 'house sound' ?

I'm tempted by a pair of HD600 - but worried they will be too warm and muddy ?

The only way I can trial these is to buy them - which is not the best !

any advice ?

Gareth.

(i don't want closed cans or in-ear cans; I allready have etymotics when i need isolation )

[Tom Hakala]

you just can't go wrong with HD600. I love their sound and 600's (also 650's) are very comfortable to wear.

Just

[Plush]

None of those Sennheiser phones you listed are dull or overly warm. In these phones the treble is extended and natural. For an introduction to this family of sound I point you to the HD 580. They are top notch headphones and have the same family of sound as the much more expensive (and only marginally better) 600's and 650's.

I also REALLY like the new AKG K701. They need a lot of break in time but by no means are they bass light. That is a myth---also perpetuated here on GS.

[Stephen Pruitt]

The HD-650s are simply amazing headphones. I really, really like them! And they are really comfortable, as well.

Stephen

[edham]

Originally Posted by Plush

I also REALLY like the new AKG K701. They need a lot of break in time but by no means are they bass light. That is a myth---also perpetuated here on GS.

with all due respect I completely disagree with this statement.
I had a set of 701's and allowed them over a month of break in time.
They are bass light. Not a myth imho.
Plus the top band hurt my obviously abnormally large head.

Senn 600's for most use and Grado RS1's as an 'early distortion alert system".

[SpiderM69]

Originally Posted by fatgaz

Hi,

I'm tempted by a pair of HD600 - but worried they will be too warm and muddy ?

They're not at all. They're great phones and pretty accurate (i.e., EQ translates well).

Within that price range I beleive they're the best on the market. To give you an idea, I sent a more expensive pair of Ultrasones back becasue the HD600 were so superior.

[fatgaz]

So no-one would say that the senn's are muddy or warm ? because that is what i think my old 480's are.

I'm tempted by the hd600 as it's apparently got less bass than the 650. bit worried by possible lack of treble 'air' ?

Sennhieser web-site has what i consider are confusing descriptions: 600 is described as good for recording engineers ?, the 650 as good for consumers ? just more daft marketing spliel ?

I suppose I am wary of two things,

1). overly bright & forward cans which will fatigue and/or overly 'dry' bass that will fail to 'anchor' the music. perhaps in attempt to have a 'detailed' sound ?

2). too much boomy/muddy bass - to try and make up for the fact that you can't 'feel' bass with headphones.

please stop me worrying and help me to make a bloody decision !

Gareth.

[Dr Funk]

I had a pair of HD480s for years and now use HD600s - they really are light years apart! The 600s are great. I also went with Bob O's suggestion of getting the aftermarket HD650 cable - makes a positive difference.

Frank

[majortom]

I'm struggling with a similar issue right now. My studio got flooded during the rain in New York recently and I'm doing rough mixes at home on headphones for a little while.

I did a few mixes with a pair of HD650s and got what I thought was a nice well-balanced mix, frequency wise. Who knows about the stereo image. I then listened to it on some other headphones I have.

On some Grado SR325s the mix sounded excessively bright. The Grados lack some of the bass that the HD650s have. With my shure earbuds the mix sounded a little thin. Thinner than normal for those earphones, anyway. Ipod earbuds sounded muddy and crappy as usual, but no more so than normal.

So, I too am wondering if the HD650s have too much bass and a slight roll off in the highs. Or, is it that my other headphones have too little bass and too much in the highs?

[sekim]

Originally Posted by edham

with all due respect I completely disagree with this statement.
I had a set of 701's and allowed them over a month of break in time.
They are bass light. Not a myth imho.

Sounds like you didn't have a very good headphone amp to me. Mine were sort of bass shy using the typical headphone out jack on an interface (or 'whatever') box, no matter how it may be rated, but sound stellar with a real amp pushing them.

[cstanley]

sounds like you need a good headphone amp for your HD600's -
check out Headphone Amps - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio
for headphone amp suggestions.

the $2 headphone amps on most gear wont cut it.

-carl

[DJGoody]

I have the 580s, and honestly, I haven't gotten the 650s because I like the midrange better on the 580s. I will say that the 650s are a bit more refined though.

They love a good amp, for sure, and the replacement cable is a definite improvement. I use a HeadFi amp, and it has a crossfeed switch which helps tremendously because it simulates the crossfeed you'd get using monitors. It helps when mixing because you don't fight the outsides as much, and stuff in the middle is easier to judge.

I also have a valve ASL headphone amp that sounds great, and my Benchmark DAC1 has a good headphone amp as well.......

[electropoet]

Again...i recently got the 650's and they are mind-blowingly good. They sound fantastic.

[morebutter]

FYI the 580's and 600's use the exact same drivers. only difference is the mesh covers over the headphones and the headband. you can buy replacement 600 mesh grilles from sennheiser for $14/pair and put them on the 580s. then you essentially have a pair of 600's without the corny fake marble finish on the headband.

[Omicron_9]

Greetings.

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but has anyone used both the HD600 and the HD650, and can explain the differences between them?

TIA,
-0.9

[soundwizard]

+1 for the Sennheisers! I was in Spain assisting on an album by an orchestra over there and we had just 600's to monitor. It was partly because the "control room" was the lobby of the theatre...but it was also partly because they sounded great. We used an MS, and the 600s really opened up and sounded great. I'm buying me a pair as soon as I get the money!

[fatgaz]

thanks for all the advice and opinion.

seems like i should totally ignore the sound of my old sennheisers.

problem now is to find a bargain pair in the UK ... it seems it's 170 quid for the 650's, 140 quid for the 600's. and people do seem to think that the 600 will be improved by the 650 cable. I don't do ebay. ( and i don't trust the local hi-fi shop - 15 grand for a CD player ???? what are these people on)

don't think I want to risk the K701's ( i could mail order ~ 170 quid and risk returning them) , as the 'super dry' or 'light' bass does seem likely too be too much of a problem.

I might risk the 650's (amazon) to get a 'newer' (and more robust ?) version with the better cable. Especially as the two mailorder places for the hd600's that i've found seem to be possibly dodgy regarding customer service. however the various posts here do seem to suggest the hd600 is the flatter of the two.

For the chap who was having problems mixing, maybe you take some time out to listen to known prior good mixes/tracks and maybe fave albums to try to learn the sound signature a bit more ?

Gareth.

[obostic]

Maybe my HD600 were damaged when I first purchased them because they are rolled out quite a bit in the highs compared to my Sony MD7506s. I know the Sonys are a little bright, but they are inline with all my speakers. Maybe I should try another pair of HD600s because the pair I have is unusable for monitoring.

[SpiderM69]

FYI, I did a lot of research before buying the HD600's. A number of people who had owned and/or listened to the HD 650's as well as the HD600 said that the HD600 sounds better, more balanced. I didn't read any posts where anyone said they preferred the 650's over the 600's.

[robmcw]

Check out 'Ultrasone Proline Headphones'

[reddirt]

FWIW I did an unscientific "shootout" in a Hi-Fi shop over 2 days last Xmas of the 600s. 650s and 701s.
My subjective impressions are as follows, The AKG had a strong element of "very nice" but also had something missing, the 600s were very similar to the 650s and were perhaps a little more lively but not as cohesive. The 650s were for me the best of the bunch ; if they opened up after running them in for some time as people say they do then they would be very good. I wouldn't call them dull ,they certainly are refined.
I would say to you on the strength of my experience, you really have to listen to them.
Again FWIW the best cans I have to mix or check mixes on are 26 year old Senn 420s, bass shy but mid -revealing ; my other cans sound better and are a better bet for clients or listening for enjoyment.
Cheers, Ross

[lucey]

I'd agree with that. The 701s are Reference phones ... dry and flat. "Something missing" is easy to feel with them.

[fatgaz]

just borrowed both cans for the w/end. thought i sould post my impresions.

They certainly have a different tonal balance.
the 650 has more bass and the mids/top seems to be lower. This actually makes it harder to hear the upper mids properly.

I MUCH prefer the 600's due to the tonal balance being much better to hear everything; there is still plenty of bass and it has never been overpoweringly bright with any test track. the 650's might have a clearer top-end BUT you can't really tell because it's just not loud enough.

wierdest thing is the soundstage imaging, it's sometimes almost behind my head with extremely left/right panned sounds. Maybe my head is a funny shape or I'm not quite wearing the cans right.

Gareth.