Digital Live Mixer - What's the best?

[Fretbored]

What would you recommend for a live digital mixer if money isn't an object. More channels the merrier.
Are the digidesign consoles worth it?
What about Yamahas or Allen & Heath.

[PandaFOH]

The digi venue ... no contest.

Panda

[Fretbored]

...and snake?

[ssaudio]

MIDAS XL8 is superb and for me, a clear leader

The Digidesign Venue family is very good too, the Yamahas and A&Hs are way behind in terms of quality, power and versatility

[Fretbored]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

MIDAS XL8 is superb and for me, a clear leader

The Digidesign Venue family is very good too, the Yamahas and A&Hs are way behind in terms of quality, power and versatility

Looks tasty.

[ssaudio]

the XL8 is unbelievably good...

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

MIDAS XL8 is superb and for me, a clear leader

The Digidesign Venue family is very good too, the Yamahas and A&Hs are way behind in terms of quality, power and versatility

I'm with you on this one.

XL8 is an awesome desk.

I would also add the DiGiCo and Studer desks to this list.

[Jim vanBergen]

IMO, Studer Vista 5 blows away the XL8 for sonics and ease of control.

And the DiGiCo D5T is no slouch, it's a joy to mix on and sounds so clean, I thought it was analog. Each desk requires a different approach to channel control and touchscreen interface.

So you can see, it's largely a very personal opinion. I like the XL8, but have some serious issues with the interface. And I will mix on the Venue, but I think the Profile is a much better surface. but STILL laden with problems.

I know there are nay-sayers to the DiGiCo D5T, specifically Broadway users who experienced static issues. I have had them myself, but still love that desk and its dual redundant fiber snake.

But, the original post said, "if money was no object". So, have you looked at the Stagetec Cantus? This is a pretty serious desk (No, I have NOT mixed on it!) but its well worth a look.

JvB

[Jim vanBergen]

Like it or not, the sad truth is that the Yamaha PM1d and PM5d are the most commonly found digital consoles on high end (Over 30k) as well as low end (under 20k) shows. Simple truth, though the interface & preamps do not have the best sound on the market, they are quite good values at each price point. They are pretty easy to navigate.

Has anyone here actually mixed on the Allen & Heath? It's very new...just released at AES.

[Remoteness]

We should also mention the Lawo desks.

I like what I saw at this past (2007) AES in NYC.
I haven't heard one yet, but MTV Networks Mobile 8 has a 56 fader MC66 installed in the rig.

[huub]

Just stumbled across this thread:

The lawo is a fantastic desk, unbelievably flexible and fast (you can rearrange your desk in about one second, live, no audio interruption, same with making faders stereo/mono)
The sound of the converters and preamps is fantastic (German style, you know, scientifically measured and stuff, no 'warm analog' mojo here, but fantastic sound nevertheless)
The sound of the eq and compressors is pretty good.. The eq sounds, well.. like a good eq (same scientific german measured stuff), the sound of the compressors and limiters I don't like so much.. after a year or so I've learned to make em work, but I'm still not in love with em..
Our previous desks, the neve libra live, although insanely unreliable, sounded quite a bit nicer when it came to dynamics.. I didn't really feel the need for external compressors or limiters on the neve, with the lawo I need em for essential components of a mix (lead voc, drums, mix)..

Anyway, for reliability and extreme flexibility, the Lawo is fantastic!

Huub

[Beyersound]

The XL8 is amazing, the Digi Venue is hands down the most flexible and logically designed for a live situation-Thanks Robert Scovill! The Digico D5 is hands down the most overly bright sounding high dollar digital console out there.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

MIDAS XL8 is superb and for me, a clear leader

The Digidesign Venue family is very good too, the Yamahas and A&Hs are way behind in terms of quality, power and versatility

I agree with you, except for the Yamaha. You have obviously never been on a PM-1D, they started this whole genre. They are aging but not lacking in quality, power or versatility (they're completely modular for gods sake!), the most reliable large format digital of all time (It's amazing what happens when you write your own software code!). The only weak spot are those "only ok" compressors. But the factory Version 2 plugin ones are really cool, although limited to the effects slots.

[Remoteness]

How do you compare the Studer with the Lawo in quality, tactile control surface and sound?

Originally Posted by huub

Just stumbled across this thread:

The lawo is a fantastic desk, unbelievably flexible and fast (you can rearrange your desk in about one second, live, no audio interruption, same with making faders stereo/mono)
The sound of the converters and preamps is fantastic (German style, you know, scientifically measured and stuff, no 'warm analog' mojo here, but fantastic sound nevertheless)
The sound of the eq and compressors is pretty good.. The eq sounds, well.. like a good eq (same scientific german measured stuff), the sound of the compressors and limiters I don't like so much.. after a year or so I've learned to make em work, but I'm still not in love with em..
Our previous desks, the neve libra live, although insanely unreliable, sounded quite a bit nicer when it came to dynamics.. I didn't really feel the need for external compressors or limiters on the neve, with the lawo I need em for essential components of a mix (lead voc, drums, mix)..

Anyway, for reliability and extreme flexibility, the Lawo is fantastic!

Huub

[Adebar]

In the 50 k€ class what do you think about the Digi Profile or the iLive from A&H?

The iLive seems to have nice features and maybe more flexibility in routing than the Profile. The Profile instead seems to be a bit more pro - better build quality.

any thoughts on these 2?

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Adebar

In the 50 k€ class what do you think about the Digi Profile or the iLive from A&H?

The iLive seems to have nice features and maybe more flexibility in routing than the Profile. The Profile instead seems to be a bit more pro - better build quality.

any thoughts on these 2?

Honestly, and this is my personal preference, I'd go DiGiCo D1 first, then PM5D-RH if you can get a deal on price to hit 50k, the Profile after that. We had some serious issues with the Profile in the first three weeks after delivery, and it required a MAJOR overhaul. tutt I love it's small size, but it's limited in busses if you're doing large distributed sound systems or Broadway. I played with the iLive and the Lawo at LDI...and had problems with both. But if digidesign is the format you're most familiar with, the Profile would then be hands-down, if it works well and the plug-ins do you right. I still chose to get a tube pre and tube & solid state dynamics for some money channels, 'cause no DSP warms up 'right' to my ear like analog.

If you're doing FOH for live music acts with a reasonable amount of mixes, I think the Profile is pretty sweet. The current version of Digi software is a HUGE step from where it began (though it's been a painful process...Scov has been great at pushing the code warriors to deliver, and it shows!)

Does this help at all? Given the cost of the desks, you should be able to find a manufacturer's rep to get you a demo! When is the European AES?

JvB

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Honestly, and this is my personal preference, I'd go DiGiCo D1 first, then PM5D-RH if you can get a deal on price to hit 50k, the Profile after that. We had some serious issues with the Profile in the first three weeks after delivery, and it

If you're doing FOH for live music acts with a reasonable amount of mixes, I think the Profile is pretty sweet. The current version of Digi software is a HUGE step from where it began (though it's been a painful process...Scov has been great at pushing the code warriors to deliver, and it shows!)

Does this help at all?
JvB

Yes thanks, that helps. What kind of problems did occur on the profile?

I worked a week on the PM5D and didn´t like it so much because of the philosophy how you do the routing and all this things (maybe I have a problem with Yamaha ). The iLive was quiet simple in operation, only the response on the touch screen was to slow for my feeling. The profile appealed me most - kind of feeling well with that desk. So experience like you told me about stability are really important for a decision.

Any other thoughts?

[Jim vanBergen]

Problems I had on the Profile were motherboard & card-based. A tech from the factory was flown out to replace the motherboard and three cards, one was I/O and two processing I believe. It was NO FUN, but every digital console experiences "hiccups" in their manufacturing and delivery, it just sucks to be the one with the lemon. I know PM1Ds engine and CS1Ds that have been retired by the factory as "too buggy/faulty" as well as DiGiCos that burned boards and should have been retired. Hey, I know analog desks that caught fire as well... everything has a downside, and nothing is perfect.

I hear ya on the PM5D. There are some things about it that are just lacking, and the approach to the user interace can be a pain.

If you like the user interface on the iLive, then maybe that's the desk for you. A lot of digital desks is how well you can drive the interface as a user, and that has impacted my work significantly on 10k consoles and 2million dollar desks. First time I worked on a Sony Oxford I thought, the EQ is sweet but finding my way around this monster is a pain, but after the end of the day I realized I much preferred it over any Euphonix desk I have mixed on, whose EQ and dynamics I thought really blew. I really enjoyed the SSL Aysis Air, the channels and pre's are amazing...as long as I didn't have to patch anything, 'cause I still don't understand the routing. Maybe it's me, but I've found people have radically different comfort based on the user interface, and certain desks just work well for them, or they don't. I love the CS1D (that's te PM1D's control surface for anyone who doesn't know) but HATE the engine design, which is very flexible, but sucks for the amount of interconnects you have to do every time you set up or tear down a mix position. I sure don't mind mixing on it, though. You have to be comfortable with anything you work with, and know that you can get parts or a replacement desk in a reasonable amount of time.

Originally Posted by Adebar

Yes thanks, that helps. What kind of problems did occur on the profile?

I worked a week on the PM5D and didn´t like it so much because of the philosophy how you do the routing and all this things (maybe I have a problem with Yamaha ). The iLive was quiet simple in operation, only the response on the touch screen was to slow for my feeling. The profile appealed me most - kind of feeling well with that desk. So experience like you told me about stability are really important for a decision.

Any other thoughts?

[huub]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

How do you compare the Studer with the Lawo in quality, tactile control surface and sound?

I've had two 2 hour demo sessions on the studer, no practical experience..
The user interface of the studer is, in my humble opinion, the best there is..
Knowing studer, I'm sure both the reliability and sound quality are great.
The reason we chose the lawo over the studer was a financial one, and I would love to work on a studer.. Although the rearanging of the desk in 1 second, and the on the fly changing of faders from mono to stereo and back is not possible on the studer.. Then again, the lawo's handling of surround is not very good yet, so they both have their pros and cons..

But most of what I have mentioned is broadcast related, things might be different for FOH duties?