Live choir recording extract - give me feedback

[Anarchihuahua]

Hi fellas!
This is an extract from a live choir recording I made a few days ago. The venue was a modern auditorium, with excellent acoustics, and a very very short reverb (practically nonexistent in fact).
The recording was done with a single mic pair, in spaced omnis configuration. It sounded really good to me during the rehearsal, but for the concert I did find the audience extremely noisy... sort of regretted my choice by then, and I should have thought about audience noise but it didn't bother me that much because in all the previous live choir recording I had made I never ran into such noisy audiences...
The mics were approximately 2 meters appart, just behind the conductor (2 meters from the first singers), and about 2.5 meters high. I wish I could've gone further away from the choir and higher but it was technically impossible in this auditorium.
I'll tell you later on what the recording chain was.
The file has been EQed a bit in protools (quite a significant boost in the low end actually) and added reverb, but no compression whatsoever. This is a 160kbps mp3 (and it's already taking ages to upload on the server), though, so if needed I'll post a short sample in wav.

So what do you guys think? I'm pretty young (21), and eventhough I've finished my studies I just KNOW I'll keep learning every single day So of course I'm open to all kind of criticism, good and bad!

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...Tk1mVFkwTVE9PQ

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Anarchihuahua

The mics were approximately 2 meters apart

A bit much, I'd say... Bit too wide-spread.

Daniel

[ghellquist]

Hi There.

Nice recording in many ways.

But I guess what you want is constructive critique on what to improve. I will give my first impressions on what to do differently. All is about taste though, the only thing that matters is what you like. And I am an amateur doing this for fun, no pro.

- the bass lift. No, remove that! What are you listening through when you did the mix? It is very probably that your speakers or headphones lacks bass and you are compensating for that. If you listen through speakers it might be that your room has not been treated acoustically. I would even add a high-pass filter removing anything below about 50Hz, not any music below anyway.
- my ears hear a "hole" in the middle. The sounds are either left or right, but nothing straight ahead. To me this means that the mics are too far away from each other. And 2 meters apart, rather close to the singers, is too far. With omnis I find that 50cm can be enough to get a good stereo effect. Increase this and you finally get the hole. Sometimes I fill the hole with a third omni mic, mixed in the middle.
- there seems to be some clipping at around around 2:06. It is mostly (or only, not certain) in the left channel and may be some artifact from the encoding into mp3. Could be the mic pre set too high though.

Good work, keep it up.

Gunnar

[hughesmr]

Generally pretty good balance of performing forces, but I agree with Gunnar and Daniel, though .... definitely a noticable hole in the middle. Keep your A/B at a meter spacing max. Stabilize a center image and I'd say you'd have a pretty good recording.

Cheers!
Mike

[Anarchihuahua]

Thanks guys!
The mic spacing issuedidnt sound like one to me back then, but after listening back critically I see it's becoming more and more obvious to me.
This was actually my very first spaced omnis recording (I really wanted to try it); before I'd done lots of XY cardioids and some MS as well. In the future, I'll try keeping my spaced omns not to spaced (or get a real Decca tree!!).
Actually, it was technically impossible to get the mics more centered as they were on each side of the podium for the conductor, and there was no room right behind it (first seats). At the rehearsal I had put the stands actually on the podium (on the 2 rear angles), so a bit less spread out (1.5m, maybe), but had had some complaints from conductors that they might hit them with their arms...
A good photo will show better than words (see below, on 1st photo). Actually I'll also include a general view (if you look cqrefully you can see the mics on either side of the podium)

For the clipping: I think it's mp3 based artifacts, as at that level I still had lots of headroom. Actually, throughout the whole concert, I think I only got clipping once, on applause (much louder than even the Forte moments), without even turning down the gain during the applause! (amazing pres)

For the bass boost: I know it's something that's practically never done in classical recordings unless you've got a serious problem with your recording! As I was doing it, my eyes were telling me "Come on, that's wayyy too much" but my ears were telling me it needed it... 6 dB around 150Hz, but with a lowcut at 60Hz. As I told you, I'm away from home, and mixing on the run was made through headphones only (HD280Pro). And they're starting to get old!
I just burned a CD to listen on a home stereo, it does sound a bit too much down there!! I agree with you now! But is it that bad? I mean, to the point of totally removing it + putting a lowcut? It sounds to me as if I should go with just a 2dB boost or so at 120/150Hz on the whole, does that sound wrong? Have to try. But well, it's probably the lack of long experience as well

But I guess what you want is constructive critique on what to improve.

Yes but if there is stuff that sounds right to you, don't hesitate to tell me as well! It's always good to know also.

[willi1203]

what did you record with ?
(recorder, pres, mics)
Sounds pretty good !
(quelle école as-tu faite ?)

[mrsteaks]

Got to agree with earlier posts. Very good recording, BUT - 1) "hole in the middle" - keep your spacing to A/B standards - 60 CM (27 inches) would have been the outside edge of what I would have done. 2) Why the bass lift? High pass from 50Hz and up or just roll off below 50. You'll get less room noise if you do. 3) It would have been nice to get the mics further back, so the sound would have been more "choral", more blend. I hear a lot of vowels - means the mics are too close. A/B pair on a single stand or flown (see "Flyings Mics") would have been a good option.

All said, nice work!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Anarchihuahua

Thanks guys!
Yes but if there is stuff that sounds right to you, don't hesitate to tell me as well! It's always good to know also.

It's a good start, and we all started some where! You're on the right track. Next time you get the opportunity, try the closer spacing. You'll be surprised at how well it works.

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[hughesmr]

What Mark said, only if you back up a bit more you may need a piano spot.

By looks of the venue, it appears that there was space in the center where you COULD have gotten a single stand with a 1m stereo bar on it to do A/B. Also looks like you are using short stands....you should grab a 15-footer for gigs like this that has a stable tripod base (Manfrotto, AEA, etc). That way you can set up in the first few rows somewhere on center, open the tripod under the seats, and get the mics up and away from audience. This will also aid choral blend/sibilance issues that Mark mentions. Then all you need is some gaffer tape to keep people away!

[Anarchihuahua]

Thanks again for your input guys!
I like the putting-a-mic-stand-in-the-first-few-row-seats thing. But yeah, back there, those were the two only stands I had (they actually belong to the auditorium, I didn't bring mic stands with me on a plane!!). It would have been hard though to get a tripod base stable in there, as this room had a stairlike floor. But I should try that in future events.
Could you point out or recommend specific models of stands and T bars (and Decca tree stands, why not!) by Manfrotto? I can't seem to find anything audio related by them... I really need to get a couple of heavy duty mic stands for events like these when I get back home. I know DPA also makes a Decca tree support now.


For the recording chain, well I think you'll be surprised. There's probably only one thing in there which might be considered high end.

Mics: pair of Studio Projects C4 (less than 300 euros for the pair!). I actually really love these, for their price I think they're amazing. I regularly use them alongside KM184s in studio and have found quite often that they provided as good results as the KMs. (other colleagues agreed as well)

Pres: 2 Buzz Audio Elixirs (API 500 series modules) powered by an Atlas Pro Audio Revolver (500 series 2-modules holder). That's for the high end part! I really enjoyed using these. Actually, I'm selling them if anyone's interested.

Converter: Mbox2mini! That's for the crappiest part! But I love its portability, it allows me to have my protools rig pretty much anywhere with me.

Recorder: ProTools LE in a Macbook.

I really loved this setup because it was probably the lightest mobile rig ever used with decent results! Look at the picture.

Thanks again for your comments guys.

(PS: to answer Willi1203: J'ai fait un BTS audiovisuel a Cannes)

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Anarchihuahua

Thanks again for your input guys!
Could you point out or recommend specific models of stands and T bars (and Decca tree stands, why not!) by Manfrotto?

AEA stands (AEA Big Ribbon Mics ™ Bringing You the Future of Ribbon Microphone Technology) are arguably the most stable around, and they have models that have an articulated leg for use on unlevel surfaces...that feature alone has saved me a few times. I use a AEA-13HDV ($325). They also have stereo positioners and Decca Trees, but their stuff is pretty expensive. For details, click on the AEA pricelist.

I don't have personal experience with Manfrotto, but many here do. There are several threads on stands here on GS where you can dig up info.

For stereo bars, I use SabraSom. Pretty cheap and works well. Order from Jerry Bruck at Posthorn (Posthorn | Universal Sabra Tools) and get the 1-meter hex rod for A/B.

Good luck!

[mrsteaks]

Mike is right on, as usual!

I might add that I use the Manfrotto stands, which aren't audio specific - true. They are photographic light stands. Look at MicSupply.com. They have Manfrotto stands, t-bars (Sabra-som and Manfrotto) and lots of IDEAS. Good web site.

I made a t-bar based on what I saw other folks here doing. Once again, have a look at the "Flying Mics" thread on this forum, started by d_fu (Daniel). He initiated a great thread that has pictures and more IDEAS. My t-bar is a piece of angle steel I bought at Home Depot. It has holes every few inches and is 48 inches long. I bought some mic clamps to attach mics to it as well as bolts (3/8's) to attach the the "European" adaptors that screw into the 5/8 - 27 threads on shock mounts. The bar can be flown or attached to a stand - of any kind. I had it powder coated black for just a few dollars. Looks quite good!

Don't be afraid to think outside the box!

Mike is right, though - there is nothing like the beautiful "mic positioners" that Wes Dooley makes and sells.

Have fun!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[Anarchihuahua]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

For stereo bars, I use SabraSom. Pretty cheap and works well. Order from Jerry Bruck at Posthorn (Posthorn | Universal Sabra Tools) and get the 1-meter hex rod for A/B.

Good luck!

That looks interesting!
So if I want a custom bar + accessories, I should order:
(1) 100mm support bar
(1) 5/8" I.D. mic stand mount for hex rods (that's the thing to mount the bar on the mic stand, right?)
(2 or more) Sliding mic mounts, 3/8" and 5/8" O.D. threaded studs (and these are the actual mic mounts)

That'd make it 10 + 9.75 + 2*8.50 = 36.75 dollars for a 2 mics bar, that's really cheap! Am I doing it wrong?
Maybe I should get one before leaving the States, he might not ship internationally.

[hughesmr]

Almost...the 1000mm (=1m) bar is $25. You were looking at the 100mm bar. Still pretty cheap, though, if you ask me.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Anarchihuahua

That looks interesting!
So if I want a custom bar + accessories, I should order:
(1) 100mm support bar
(1) 5/8" I.D. mic stand mount for hex rods (that's the thing to mount the bar on the mic stand, right?)
(2 or more) Sliding mic mounts, 3/8" and 5/8" O.D. threaded studs (and these are the actual mic mounts)

That'd make it 10 + 9.75 + 2*8.50 = 36.75 dollars for a 2 mics bar, that's really cheap! Am I doing it wrong?
Maybe I should get one before leaving the States, he might not ship internationally.

I'd get the 1000mm support bar. Gives you much more flexibility. It comes to $51.75, if I added correctly. Pretty darn inexpensive! Think I'll order one...

It is probably a good idea to get it before you leave the States.

Thanks, Mike!!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[Anarchihuahua]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Almost...the 1000mm (=1m) bar is $25. You were looking at the 100mm bar. Still pretty cheap, though, if you ask me.

Oh, yeah!!! Silly me...