Mics 101 - placement for beginners

[boojum]

I am just starting out on this recording thing. I have a pair of Schoeps CMC64's and an SD 722. I am trying to learn good basic mic placement on two channels. I know the basic arrays (ORTF, NOS, DIN, DINa, OSS). Is there a book or series of books you can recommend? I have two by Eargle and The Stereo Soundbook. I want to do just acoustic, chamber as much as possible but also small group jazz and folks/bluegrass but out here there is mostly PA rock, country rock and blues.

Thanks for any help you can provide

[hle144]

Originally Posted by boojum

I am just starting out on this recording thing. I have a pair of Schoeps CMC64's and an SD 722. I am trying to learn good basic mic placement on two channels. I know the basic arrays (ORTF, NOS, DIN, DINa, OSS). Is there a book or series of books you can recommend? I have two by Eargle and The Stereo Soundbook. I want to do just acoustic, chamber as much as possible but also small group jazz and folks/bluegrass but out here there is mostly PA rock, country rock and blues.

Thanks for any help you can provide

No book will subsitute 10k hours in the studio.

Put a mic in front of the amp or instrument, like the way it sounds? Press record. Don't like it? Move it until desired sound. Repeat 1000 times. Mic placement 101.

[boojum]

I would dearly love to get the instruction available working as an apprentice in a studio. But I am out in an isolated area on the coast of Oregon. I do understand that it is putting out the mics again and gain but was hoping there were some basic rules such as when ORTF vs DIN; something like that. I enjoy the attempts at recording even with the local amp'ed stuff. I learn a little each time. And I get to play with the results a bit in post with Samplitude. I am just looking for ways to shorten the learning curve.

TIA

[tnjazz]

There are no hard and fast rules for mic placement or orientation.

You can't just say "Always run mics ORTF in this venue because it sounds the best" because it's all dependent on the music, the engineer, the musicians placement, the gravitational pull of the earth, etc...

If you know the basics of the patterns, you need to use your ear to determine what the best method of recording is for that particular moment in time.

Good luck!

[leddy]

I learn the most when I'm able to record the same group in the same room, but using different set-ups. If you have the mics & channels, you can run multiple pairs on the same gig. Then you can really key in on the pros & cons of different ways, and figure out what you and/or the client likes.

I've been recording my own jazz group regularly for about 4 years now, and I am just now producing recordings I'm really proud of. To be fair, some of that time was learning about, and building up a respectable inventory of gear to do the job - but that's part of the education as well.

[Harvey Gerst]

Try this link:

http://www.itrstudio.com/MIC_CHAT.PDF

[Don S]

There are a couple of excellent sources for reference. The DPA website has a "microphone university" section that is fantastic at explaining stereo mic techniques.
DPA Microphones

Also the "New stereo sourcebook" by Ron Stryker is very complete on both the history of stereo and techniques.
Posthorn Recordings

[RobAnderson]

My first (and still my favorite) book on the subject was On-Location Recording by Bruce (and Jenny) Bartlett. I think they released a new one recently. Maybe he's too shy for self-promotion, but I know I have seen him post on these boards. Great book!

But there's still only one way to learn mic technique: watch a master in action, listen like crazy to all kinds of recordings, and then do it. Repeat 1000000 times. Remember your mistakes and learn from them.

[AnAverageJoe]

Great Advice Guys and links

[loujudson]

Here's something practical you can do, and the more you do it the better it will be:
Move around the room and listen. See with your mind's ear what you'd like to hear on playback. Go to a gig you don't NEED to have a perfect recording of, and do a different position for each song, if they don't mind (or do it in rehersals) and compare later (taking notes helps, or diagrams). Try covering one ear to see what the mic hears, and imagine how they will combine later.

Or do the same thing with different mic configurations - it is easy to go from ORTF to XY quckly with some mic mounts. Try spaced mics, omnis or cardioids, and hear the difference. Try taping the mics to the back wall to work sort of like PZMs (that can be amazing if the room is right, takes away half the echoe of the room).

I started recording in 1966 in high school, and the first record I made of the choir with a jazz trio (I was the bass player) still stands up today as a good spaced pair of omnis - even though they were $17 Sony mics, it sounds like the performance did... don't be afraid to experiement... I've learned as much in the last five or ten years as in the 30 before that, so it keeps changing and "getting better all the time."

Good luck!

Lou

[boojum]

Sounds a lot like the advice of Eddy Merccx on being a good bike rider: ride a bike a lot. OK, makes sense. Back to recording every damned fool in Astoria who can make a sound. LOL

Thanks for the encouragement and reenforcement. I downloaded the PDF you put out there, Harvey, and will be reading it offline.

Cheers and thanks to all.

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by boojum

I downloaded the PDF you put out there, Harvey, and will be reading it offline.

I think it will answer most of your questions (and probably answer a few that you didn't ask).

[brubart]

XY, ORTF, spaced pair, etc. are just starting points. You can always adjust the mic spacing, angling, polar pattern and miking distance to change the stereo imaging.

XY, Blumlein or MS (coincident pair) tends to give sharp imaging and mono compatibility. XY tends to give a narrow stereo spread, but MS lets you adjust the stereo spread after the recording is done. Blumlein (crossed figure-eights) gives a full stereo spread and sharp imaging, but usually has to be placed a fixed distance from the ensemble so that the mics point at the edges of the ensemble.

ORTF, NOS, DIN (near-coincident pairs) tend to give sharp-to-fairly-sharp imaging and an accurate stage width, but may or may not be mono compatible.

Spaced pair (A-B) tends to give less sharp images, wide stage (but it's adjustable), and may or may not be mono compatible. Spaced pair tends to give a pleasing sense of spaciousness which might just be due to phase incoherence between channels.

A baffled omni pair (Jecklin disk, SASS, sphere microphone) tends to give sharp images, an accurate stage width, and good mono compatibility. But the stereo spread is not adjustable except by changing the miking distance to the ensemble, which also affects the direct-to-reverb ratio.

Techniques that use omni mics can take advantage of their generally better low-frequency response than directional mics.

Suppose you want the imaging to be accurate. Let's say that "accurate" means, the left-side instruments are heard out of the left speaker; the right-side instruments are heard out of the right speaker, half-left instruments are heard half-left, and so on. (You might want a string quartet to have a narrower stereo spread than an orchestra).

Set up a stereo mic pair in front of the stage. Record yourself speaking on stage from far left, half left, center, half right, and far right. Announce your position. Play back the recording over your monitor speakers. Do the images appear where you say they are?

If the half-left announcement sounds far left, the mics are angled or spaced too far apart, so reduce the angle or spacing and try again. If the half-left announcement sounds too close to the center, the mics are angled or spaced too close together, so increase the angle or spacing and try again.

It's not as simple as that; there are other considerations. For example, angling the mics farther apart can result in off-axis coloration or high-frequency rolloff for the center instruments. Changing mic angles also changes the center-to-side balance and the sense of distance to the ensemble, and so on. But I hope these suggestions can get you in the ballpark.

Good luck,
Bruce Bartlett

[big country]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Try this link:

http://www.itrstudio.com/MIC_CHAT.PDF

the best read...

brought out the Mic monster in me along time agostike

[boojum]

Guys, thanks for all the help and guidance. I have Barttlett and the New Stereo Soundbook and I have read them! I have a couple of John Eargle's books, too. I just like to feel out what other folks are doing. I did find that spaced omni's with ORTF in the middle can make for muddy sound in the wrong room. I just had to make sure. Kind of like making sure the paint really is wet. But now I know just what you get in the wroing space and can file that away. The omnis work, the cards work, but together they were not so cool.

And I am recording every damned sound I can here. I show up in a lot of venues, learn where the mics belong. I pretty much use the cards to take the room out of the mix as much as possible. Most venues here are bad venues. I am learning how to deal with that.

From MZ-RH1 + ECM-MS957 to the current rig in less than a year. It is a huge jump and now I am trying to catch up to the gear. Well, I was before, too.

Cheers and thanks for the insights.



Later - I just am so grateful for you guys with eons of experience that you are so willing to share from experience. And there are guys in this thread who are idols in the recording business of mine. Wow! The mother load!

[dortola]

Originally Posted by brubart

Bruce Bartlett post

WOW!!!!!!!! Thanks Bruce!!!!!!!!!

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by brubart

Good luck,
Bruce Bartlett

How cool is it to have Bruce Bartlett to answer your question? I think that deserves some appreciation! Let's all join in now....

"BRUUUUUUUUUUUCE!
(pause)
BRUUUUUUUUUUUCE!"

Thanks for joining the thread. Great work, we're big fans...as you can see!

Long live Gearslutz!



JvB

[brubart]

Glad to help! Here are a few more thoughts...

My go-to stereo system is NOS (cardioid mics at 90 degrees, 11.8 inches apart) because it seems to work well in many situations. There is less off-axis coloration for center instruments than with ORTF, and the angle between mics is easier to set visually.

But you have to be adaptable. Once I had to record an orchestra in a very live church. To reduce the reverb pickup, I used two cardioid mics aiming straight ahead (for maximum direct sound) about 2 feet apart.

The stone walls in that church colored the sound in a strange way, and I had to use Harmonic Balancer to make the spectrum more like a good orchestral recording (fairly flat up to 1 kHz, with a gentle rolloff above that). The tonal balance sounded so much better after Har-Bal. Was it less hi-fi or less "true to the source in that venue"? Maybe, but it sure sounded better, and that's what the end listener hears.

With NOS, and with the mics I'm using (Neumann KM-184) the string basses on the right side seem to image toward the center. Might be a polar pattern failure at low frequencies. I also need to boost the lows a little because those mics roll off there.

Recently I recorded an orchestra outdoors in a band shell. Because the sound was so dry, I added Lexicon Pantheon reverb in Sonar Producer, and that brought it back to life. It put the musicians in a good concert hall.

Classical recording master Marc Aubort typically uses two omni mics 12 to 15 inches apart (if I remember correctly), and he always monitors on the same headphones. He has learned how the headphone sound translates to speakers.

If you record stereo with a Mid-Side setup, you can simulate a matrix with a DAW. Here's how to change the stereo spread:
1. Record the mid mic on track 1; record the side mic on track 2.
2. Copy or clone track 2 to track 3. Be sure the waveforms are aligned.
3. Pan track 2 hard left; pan track 3 hard right.
4. Reverse the polarity of track 3 or use an “invert polarity” plug-in.
5. Group tracks 2 and 3 so their faders move together.
6. To change the stereo spread, vary the levels of tracks 2 and 3 relative to track 1.

I've learned so much on this forum... lots of wisdom here.

Bruce Bartlett

[NOLAfishwater]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

There are no hard and fast rules for mic placement or orientation.

all dependent on the music, the engineer, the musicians placement, the gravitational pull of the earth, etc...

Good luck!