Phil Woods Project

[bongo]

August 6th & 7th I'll be recording the Phil Woods Little Big Band for this project. It's something he wrote in the sixties based on A. A. Milne's poems Now We Are Six. He was never able to get permission to record or perform this until this year. It will be drums, bass and piano in iso rooms and alto, tenor, bari, french horn, trombone and trumpet plus Phil in the main room. This is my mic collection. What would you do?

I've recorded them before but since I'm stuck out here, isolated on my 23 acres, I thought I'd ask around! And I thought we could use a new thread!

[henryrobinett]

No advice, but THAT IS SO COOL!

[MattJazz]

Are you going to use the Stereo Royer as overhead for drums?
I am curious. Or are you planing on using it in the room for everyone?
I never asked , what was the signal chain you used when you posted that clip of the drums a while ago. SF-12 right?


mp

[mal]

I do mostly jazz so here's my suggestion:

Drums:
Kik-421 or an RE20 (I usually use an M88)
Snr-SM 81
Hats-SM 81
Rack & Flr Tom-414 EB-or if more full on playing:the 421’s can be good for a tighter tom sound
Oheads-SF12 or 2 x Earthworks for an open sound

Bass: 87 lower on bass and KM 54 for fingers/strings; DI if required (also useful for can feeds)

Piano:I normally use 414 ULBs…could try the two earthworks if in an iso room..

Alto,-122
tenor –u67
bari,-u 87
french horn,-coles 4038 from behind
trombone –77DX
trumpet-121
Phil-U47plus Royer 121 or 122 or 77dx next to 47-blend as required

plus a couple of room mics for overall horn blend if you need it..esp in ensemble parts.

Hope all goes well....

[bongo]

I'm here at a remote recording waiting for Dave Liebman to show up!

Yeah Matt I'lll probably use the Royer as drum OH's. I find it a little noisy for a room mic for quiet stuff.
If you're referring to that rock clip, the chain was Marko-Gretch studio kit-SF-12-Shadow Hill-PT.

Thanks for the suggestions Mal. I'll definitely use the U-47 on Phil. He tends to move around as he conducts the section. The 47 seems to pick him up wherever he goes. My piano mics, believe it or not are AT-4051's. Nothing seems to beat them on that piano.

Love these WIFI spots!

[ajfarber]

Okay, here goes.

I don't like isolation, but if that's what Phil wants, he's the boss.

I would do this:

Piano-Schoeps 221b (just one) If you must have a stereo pair, I'd use the Royer sf-12.

Bass: Could use a ribbon. RCA 77 or Royer. I'd probably go with the KM54.

Drums: 1 schoeps 221b for a main drum mic. 1 more for a snare/hh combo and 1 RE-20 for the bassdrum if needed.

Saxophones: If Phil is playing in the section, I'd put them in a circle around the U47 on omni. If you want to mic the separately, U67 on Phil, U87 or km56 on other alto, U47 on tenor and a Royer ribbon on the baritone.

Trumpet: Royer 121
Trombone: Coles 4038
Horn in F: RCA 77 ( sometime I like to record the horn with the mics in front of the player the way it sounds to the audience. Any good mic should do).

Anyway, I'm a bit of a throwback I suppose. I don't like to record the instruments in stereo. I'll record them in mono and then place them in the stereo field using point-source imaging. I like ribbon and tube mics and mic pres. I don't care for rhythm section isolation as I use leakage to my advantage.

Most jazz musicians I know, don't like to play with headphones. They are usually too polite to put up a fuss when an engineer baffles them off or puts them in a booth, but they'd rather just play in one room like they rehearse and perform.

[mal]

[QUOTE=ajfarber;

Most jazz musicians I know, don't like to play with headphones. They are usually too polite to put up a fuss when an engineer baffles them off or puts them in a booth, but they'd rather just play in one room like they rehearse and perform.[/QUOTE]

Interesting point re headphones.....I find sometimes the musos like them for the clarity and detail..a lot depends on the music style of course...less popular when the music is full on and the 'phones can fall apart in the detail..the less intense stuff though some like them...bassists I find can really appreciate a good headphone mix with their own feeds so they can blend the detail they need...I use a fairly simple set up..Furman system with 1 x stereo feed of a complete mix plus 4 x mono feeds..usually drums/bass/pno & reeds/brass...some freedom for them but not too much!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by mal

Interesting point re headphones.....I find sometimes the musos like them for the clarity and detail..a lot depends on the music style of course...less popular when the music is full on and the 'phones can fall apart in the detail..the less intense stuff though some like them...bassists I find can really appreciate a good headphone mix with their own feeds so they can blend the detail they need...I use a fairly simple set up..Furman system with 1 x stereo feed of a complete mix plus 4 x mono feeds..usually drums/bass/pno & reeds/brass...some freedom for them but not too much!

I was speaking of straight-ahead acoustic jazz. Be-bop and the like. Also large ensemble stuff like the Phil Woods project we've been discussing.

As a saxophonist I can tell you this: It is impossible to blend yourself properly in a section if you, and your section-mates, are wearing cans. The "one can on, one can off" thing is a bit better but a compromise none the less. You guys gotta trust me on this one.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah BUT Andy -- that ain't always true. Not by a long shot.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Yeah BUT Andy -- that ain't always true. Not by a long shot.

I don't think electric guitar players have much experience sitting in a saxophone section.

Trust me, horn players can't blend themselves very well whilst wearing cans. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying to you.

[bongo]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I don't think electric guitar players have much experience sitting in a saxophone section.

Trust me, horn players can't blend themselves very well whilst wearing cans. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying to you.

OK Andy,
Let keep this on topic. I started this thread to get a little friendly advice from the audio community here. I really didn't want this to turn into another rant about your headphone issues. I've engineered a lot of jazz records. I've had the pleasure of recording some of the top jazz players in the world, and I can only count two sessions where the musicians wanted to record in the same room without headphones.

Please don't assume that every horn player doesn't like headphones. Please don't assume that a guitar player doesn't know how to balance himself in a section. A rhythm section is a section too. And don't assume that because this is a Phil Woods session, that this is Be-Bop. Phil is a lot more than that. This has classical, blues and rock aspects to it. Monday we're recording rhythm section and horns. Tuesday strings and vocals.

Yesterday I was at one of the rehearsals and the everybody was balancing themselves beautifully without headphones. I expect they will balance themselves just fine with headphones too. I sure that's what Phil expects as well.

This is one of the most civil forums on GS. Let's keep it that way.

[henryrobinett]

I may have been playing jazz longer than you've been alive Andy. I've played with a LOT of great cats over the years. Still do. Have been in the studio both as a player and engineer a lot. Almost completely exclusively jazz. And my love is horn playters. Played in a lot of big bands over the years.

You definitely have a point about balancing oneslf in a horn section. But that's not all there is. Not everyone is the same.

Taking cheap shots about electric guitar players isn't nice. I've had a close alliance with sax players (especially) since the ealy 70s. In fact I think of myself as a horn players. Guitar players don't interest me much. I have more jazz friensd who play horns and piano than I do guitar. Most, without question, want phones. Sometimes not. It depends on the atmosphere. I'm talking LA, SF, NY, London, Munich, Vienna. I'm not just pulling this out my ass.

But you seem so inflexible sometimes. It's your way or it's no way.

[ajfarber]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to sound unfriendly. The computer takes some of the expression out of my voice, if you know what I mean.

Henry, I wasn't making fun of, or taking shots at the guitar. I was simply suggesting that as a guitarist, you haven't played in a saxophone section. Blending in a room with other horn players is quite difficult with cans, especially today with "private-Q" and the other self-mixing cue boxes. Anyway, I'm not being inflexible about this. It you want cans, use cans. my experience is that jazz musicians play better live at gigs than in the studio. My experience also tells me that the best records were recorded with everyone in the same room and no isolation. Perhaps I should say my favourite records.

Oh yes, I did jump to conclude that a Phil Woods date would be be-bop or straight-ahead jazz. Bongo's web-sight looks pretty cool. The first thing I saw was Andy Stein and a bunch of other string players sawing away on another Phil Woods date. Looks like fun. Who knows, maybe I'll do a date out there sometime?

Oh I forgot! We should get back to the topic. That is Bongo's poll on the mic lineup for the Woods date.

[henryrobinett]

No, I do understand. But in a sense I very often do play in a horn section. Because I read and write and play with a bunch of writers and arrangers A LOT, I actually play with the sax section quite a bit. I play melodic and harmonic lines with the saxs so I have to blend not only with them but also with the rhythm section. Particularly I played with an arranger who wrote specifically for guitar as another horn line A LOT, which was a pain and cool. And I had to blend with them and their phrasing.

So it's not all guitar over here.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

No, I do understand. But in a sense I very often do play in a horn section. Because I read and write and play with a bunch of writers and arrangers A LOT, I actually play with the sax section quite a bit. I play melodic and harmonic lines with the saxs so I have to blend not only with them but also with the rhythm section. Particularly I played with an arranger who wrote specifically for guitar as another horn line A LOT, which was a pain and cool. And I had to blend with them and their phrasing.

So it's not all guitar over here.

Dig it. Anthony Wilson does that sometimes. I've actualy done that too. Electric guitar w/ vibes and piano. You know that old Red Norvo sound. Sometimes I use electric guitar in a horn section, not usually with it's own note but blending with a unison.

[mal]

Just finished a Hammond trio today recording today where they all had cans..no problem..again I reckon' a lot is about talking to each muso and finding out what they want and are comfortable with...
The mentions re guitarists are worth pondering..as a guitarist myself there is an intrinsic relationship with the sound of the amp as you play..most guitarists I've recorded always mention this..it's often very hard to replicate this with cans...the one on one off is a good compromise..and I agree re horns also...

[bongo]

Just got a call from Bill Goodwin. Phil wants to do it all live.

Rhythm section, horns, string quartet, 2 vocalists and a narrator!

Should be even more fun.


When did GS get a spell checkerrrr?

[MattJazz]

So, where did you use the sf-12 - ????
I am really stuck. I need a pair for piano and to pull double duty for vibes.
I will be recording both a lot.
Not at the same time luckily.
Any advice Bongo?
I know you use 4051's
mp

[MattJazz]

I could have used you last night at Madison Square park. (bongo)
They had a lot of very expensive stuff(lots and lots of schoeps- Nuemann)
Just seemed a little overkill for outside.
mp

[ajfarber]

Matt, sorry I couldn't make your gig last night. I was working at Iridium.

Speaking of vibes, has anyone ever tried an M/S pair? (mid-side not Mal Stanley)

Henry, another consideration about horn blend vs. electric guitar blend: As a guitarist you can position your amp anywhere you want. As a horn player, the bell projects the sound away from you, but you still hear and "feel" the horn through bone conduction. This changes a bit if one plays with cans, has a head-cold or just got off of an aeroplane.

Kent, good to rap w/ you the other day. Hope I can do a session out there sometime.

[MattJazz]

Hey Andy,
Yah, it was a great concert. I was drooling over the mics.
Hope we can hook up in NY soon.
mp

[bongo]

Originally Posted by MattJazz

So, where did you use the sf-12 - ????
I am really stuck. I need a pair for piano and to pull double duty for vibes.
I will be recording both a lot.
Not at the same time luckily.
Any advice Bongo?
I know you use 4051's
mp

What do you have to use?

Give me a call if you want. I'll be here until I go to the PW rehearsal at 2.

[MattJazz]

Bongo,
I was thinking the other day, the reason I have always like U87 on bass is that it always sounds exactly the same. Silly huh?
It doesn't seem to matter where I have been.
I know you like other mics, as do most- Joe Ferla used a 67( I Believe).
I am trying to get Orrin to do 10-15 year follow up to our record up there.
When we do it, I hope to see you. Love recording at Red Rock!!!!!
mp

[henryrobinett]

Andy -- No, that's true. I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that I know something of the subject, having to follow and blend in with the lead in an ensemble. But with me, I still "hear" the sound of my guitar in my chest as well as my ears. Often the sound of the amp a distance away bothers me, as I practice without an amp most of the time,where the sound resonates from my chest or my belly.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Andy -- No, that's true. I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that I know something of the subject, having to follow and blend in with the lead in an ensemble. But with me, I still "hear" the sound of my guitar in my chest as well as my ears. Often the sound of the amp a distance away bothers me, as I practice without an amp most of the time,where the sound resonates from my chest or my belly.

Okay, solid!

[MattJazz]

Andy - Solid??????
Wow, showing your age!
mp


just caught the Stax show on PBS - Late last night

I heard solid a lot!!!!!

[mal]

Originally Posted by bongo

Just got a call from Bill Goodwin. Phil wants to do it all live.

Rhythm section, horns, string quartet, 2 vocalists and a narrator!

Should be even more fun.

Good luck!...I remember recording a live concert with a trio (sop sax/bass/drums) string quartet ....had dpa clip ons on the strings which saved the day when we came to remix...are you doing something similar or using other mics?

I think my scariest all live recorded date was a studio session in a large studio space with a 22 piece jazz/improv ensemble(Australian Art Orchestra) and a 4 piece Indian percussion ensemble led by Karakudi Mani..I think we used a combination of low level foldback monitors and cans for those that wanted them....the Indians bought all the band and the engineers brown stripey body shirts from India as a welcoming gift!

Let us know how the recording goes..

[bongo]

Just got back from the rehearsal at the Deerhead. What we've decided is to put the horns and the piano in the main room, drums in iso room 1, strings in iso room 2, bass in iso room 3 and the two vocalists in the control room with me.
This is what I've come up for micing wise so far.
This should be crazy!

FH 4038 Sphere when he doubles on Flugelhorn 121 (He wants the FH mic from the back and sometimes he switches in the middle of the song) Sphere
TPT RCA 77 Sphere
TB 414 figure 8 Sphere
Tenor and clarinet 121 Sphere
Alto and flute 221b Sphere
Bari and bass clarinet 414 Sphere
Phil U47 ADL600
Drums SF-12 OH GML Earthworks BD API AT4031 SN API
Bass U87 ADL600
Piano 2-4051 GML
String quartet 2X122 DW Fearn
Cello Shure KSM32 API
Bob Dorough Vocal U67 Neve
Vicki Doney Vocal U87 Neve

[bongo]

The recording went well. We recorded over 80 minutes of takes the first day!

Now, the live show. It's at our local theater
The only live sound I do is once a year at our jazz festival, which is a 2 day festival which has about 10 acts per day. The sound company brings in a big EAW system and has a fair amount of decent condenser mics. It's like mixing on very big studio monitors.

This will be the only performance of this ever. It will also be filmed for a DVD. The video company will use a split and do their own mix. We are doing a dress rehearsal the night before the performance.

My question is what mics to bring. Does anyone use ribbons live? also,I have no experience with a string quartet live. The sound man there suggested wireless lavs clipped on the instruments. I somehow doubt that the string players are going to go for that!

Any suggestions?


Thanks

[draudio2u]

Originally Posted by bongo

The recording went well. We recorded over 80 minutes of takes the first day!
also,I have no experience with a string quartet live. The sound man there suggested wireless lavs clipped on the instruments. I somehow doubt that the string players are going to go for that!

Any suggestions?


Thanks

Actually, if the string players are seasoned, they won't mind so long as you use the padded clips and not the roaches. Use the DPA lavs if you can get a hold of them. Otherwise, if there is strong opposition, go with very tight Schoeps MK4's. Nice thing about that is you can use the collet stands and they will be very ellegant visually.

Cheers.