Good all round horn section setup?

[Bleek]

Hi all,

I was wanting to get advice on getting a setup for recording horns for studios and producers. Unfortunately has to be done on a budget and needs to start with mics that have to work for everything; solo jazz, pop section, latin etc.

So far have Presonus Firepod, Macbook Pro running Logic and Sennheiser 441, for the sax my thinking.

What do you recommend for trombone and trumpet? Looking around $800 for both. And before everyone says ribbons, I love them especially for jazz and solo stuff but i don't think they're right for loud pop/rock section stuff. And I can't afford a Royer! What about Rode condensers?

Would be very interested to hear from jingle engineers etc. as that's the whole point of this setup. Thanks.

[fifthcircle]

More 441's... Probably one of my favorite all-around mics. For bones, the Beyer M88 is rather nice as well. In the right situation, the SM7 can also be a great brass mic.

You'll probably get more sonic mileage out of good dynamics than crappy condensers on horns.

--Ben

[fifthcircle]

Let me add one thing- if you must have a condenser... I'd look at the KSM44. I've seen them on the used market for about $400/ea, but usually they are a bit more. The 33 and 27 are also fine, but I prefer the 44 for brass.

Still given a choice, I'd usually reach for a dynamic or ribbon.

--Ben

[Bleek]

Hey Ben,

What do you think of the RE20 then?

Maybe I'm a little hasty in saying no ribbons but the whole point of this setup is to provide as clean and un-coloured a signal as possible for the engineers. My experience has been that ribbons are brilliant a lot of the time but not all the time. I'm after something that's just good all the time.
Also we need to use the setup in a few different rooms, not all of them perfect!

Thanks!

[misterlong]

Hi

Finally a question I can answer in a vaguely knowledgable fashion!
I am a session trombone player so have some experience in this:

Condensers
In general I find them too sensitive for my style of playing. I tend to 'clip' the capsule (right terminology?) too easily (same with trumpeters). I have tried new and old neumanns, 414s allsorts of LDCs (and a few SDCs which I do not recommend at all (I have tried a few just cos they were set up, KM183, KM184 allsorts))

Dynamics
I find a good quality dynamic is the best. My fave is the EV RE20. Awesome on the bone and well usefull all round the studio. Great bottom end response and a smooth top end, not too harsh but tight. However 400 quid, so expe

If I cant get one of these, My secret weapon is the AKG D112 (kick drum mic) It has great low end extension, and again a smooth top end. Takes loads of level too, so you don't need to worry about crapping it out!

Check out my myspace www.myspace.com/misterlong for a couple examples of me using a D112. In a mix and myspace is pretty cack, but I can post if you want. you get the general Idea.

Ribbons:
I love em. However I like an old school horn sound. However I think that compressed 'section' sound can sit and work very well in a pop mix too. Leaves lots of room for other stuff. I have used a royer r121 before, which is great and much more top endy than most ribbons, more poppy (also 800 quid or so!), likewise I have used a Thomann RB500, which I really like with a HPF and some good quality high EQ (only 70 quid! well worth it for the money). I have used an old coles/rca ribbon that rocked. Also try dynamics close and a ribbon for room and ambience. Check out the horn sound on the new mark roson stuff. Old school horns, loadsa room and ambience, and real section playing, but good pop production. Works for me!! That is a production decision though!!
I gather cascade fatheads are pretty cool on horns. Not tried em but there are samples on the cascade site Ribbon Microphones - Cascade Microphones

Hope this helps. Anyhow, what do I know I 'm just a trombonist!

Easy
long x

[wallawannabe]

Not to jack your thread, but I'm curious as to the SPL limit of ribbons... don't you guys worry about a screaming horn blowing one out?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

You'll probably get more sonic mileage out of good dynamics than crappy condensers on horns.

+1

Heck, +10,000,000

[fifthcircle]

The RE20 is a great dynamic. Just didn't think of it when I first responded. I'd probably prefer an RE 20 on bone than trumpet. For Trumpet, I really like the 441. It just works. (it also works on tons of other things including vocals, woodwinds, etc...).

When you use a condenser, you'll need to get a bit of air between the instrument and the mic. I don't find that the capsules clip unless you are right on top of them. Then again, I'm just not fond of that sound. Gotta get at least a foot or two between the bell and the horn- preferably 2-3. What I do find is that the reproduction of the top end (along with lots of condensers accentuation of that part of the spectrum) just results in a brittle sound.

One of my favorite mics for brass- especially trumpet is the UM57 tube mic. Sounds smooth and fat. Unfortunatly for this thread, it is well more costly than $800.

As for SPL's of ribbons. I've used Coles and Royers for screaming brass and never had an issue with them overloading. The problems of ribbons overloading is more on things like kick drums where the sound and the accompanying air movement can blow a ribbon.

--Ben

[Bleek]

I've heard really good things about the Sennheiser e914 for trumpet, a small condenser mic. Any thoughts?

So far is looking;

Sax - Senn 441
Bone - EV RE20 or Rode NT-2A
Trumpet - Senn e914 or ? SM57(?)

Thanks for all your help guys.

By the way i too am a trombonist.... There I've said it.....please don't hate me!