Recording pipeorgan up on a balcony

[gardinen]

Anyone who has any tips on recording a pipeorgan that's on a balcony?

[hughesmr]

5008 JTL Black Tower 19.5' Lightstand, 8 Section, Detachable 5/8" Top Mounting Stud with 1/4" x 20 Thread, Supports 25 Lbs., Black Anodized.

[d_fu]

Got some pictures?

[boojum]

the description is the link.

[RobAnderson]

Even a 20 foot mic stand would fall short of most of the pipe organs I have seen.

Is hanging the mic's a realistic option here?

[ghellquist]

Hi Gardinen.

There are at least two Swedish amateurs doing pipe organ recordings, known on the net as basso and larsfarm. Basso is in Luleå and larsfarm somewhere like Östersund. You might check the recording.org forum:
RECORDING - Pipeorgan video - Acoustic Music
RECORDING - Pipe organ recording for local radio station - Acoustic Music

There is also quite a bit of organ knowledge around in Gothenburg, in the "goart" society. There is some very nice recordings of the Örgryte organ. Those were made by Erik Sikkema, a tonemeister currently living somewhere in Gothenburg.
The North German Baroque Organ in Örgryte Nya kyrka
Erik Sikkema | Ultra Linear Stereo Image

It might help to remember that organs generally are balanced to sound good at normal ear height, so a decent recording can often be done just above that height somewhere in the middle of the church. Close micing the organ is a bit artificial and will get a lot of hisses and noises that more or less disappear at a distance.

The highest stands I have are Manfrotto 269HDBU, they go up a little over 7 meters.
Musikhaus Thomann Cyberstore -

And, I do not record organs myself, but you are always welcome to call me in Stockholm at 0739641575 .

Gunnar

[liuto]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

The highest stands I have are Manfrotto 269HDBU, they go up a little over 7 meters.
Musikhaus Thomann Cyberstore -

There are extension tubes for the Manfrotto 269HDU that extend it to over 10 m:
Manfrotto 142 (length 210cm)
Manfrotto 146 (length 314cm)

Regards
Hermann

[Musiclab]

The sound of a pipe organ is the way it sounds in the room, don't worry about getting close to the pipes if the room sounds good

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by boojum

the description is the link.

Sorry, I meant a picture of the church...

[mas]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

The highest stands I have are Manfrotto 269HDBU, they go up a little over 7 meters.

How stable is that stand? Would you still feel comfortable if you mounted a decca tree on it at full extension?

I don´t know about those extension tubes... They are made of chromed steel and are quite heavy. To mount such a tube on top of a 7,3m high alu stand seems a bit risky statically. If that things happens to fall over during a live recording, it has the power to kill some people - not a very pleasant thought!

Has anyone actually worked with that combination?

Thanx,
Markus

[liuto]

Originally Posted by mas

How stable is that stand? Would you still feel comfortable if you mounted a decca tree on it at full extension?

I don´t know about those extension tubes... They are made of chromed steel and are quite heavy. To mount such a tube on top of a 7,3m high alu stand seems a bit risky statically. If that things happens to fall over during a live recording, it has the power to kill some people - not a very pleasant thought!

There are two types of tubes: 142 and 146 are aluminium, they weigh 2,4 and 2,8 kg. The steel versions are called 642 and 646 and are of course heavier. I have not worked with these tubes and can't really comment but a Decca Tree seems a bit delicate to handle at such heights, because the law of the lever seems to apply negatively for this tutt
On the other hand, the 296HDU has a tripod base of 174cm (!). I could imagine no problem with small condensers in ORTF or AB. Only the cable weight could be problematic.

Regards
Hermann

PS.:I use the Manfrotto 420, which is another very useful stand with 2m extension tubes adding up to 6m. Unfortunately this is still to short for some organs ;-)

[mpdonahue]

We seem to rehash this subject about once every 6 months.
While the Bogen/Manfratto stands are very elegant and robust, the price of them sends me running....
If you search the archives you will find many threads about tall mic stands.
We have recorded many of the worlds great organs and to be honest, recording them at the floor level is just not acceptable for a commercial recording. This would be like saying that the best place to record an orchestra from is in a seat in the 10th row......
We have been using the Ultimate Support system stands for more than 20 years and have gone to dizzying heights. (The tallest was just shy of 60' (18m) with a 4m bar on top for the array) With tall stands, balancing the load is imperative.
The stands are designed to carry PA speakers weighing 150 pounds, so the load of a couple of mics is negligible.
We use the TS-80 series stands. To find all the adapters and couplers to make virtually any array look at the "light Tree" accessories. There are couplers, booms, "t" fittings, Mic Mounts ("Light Mount" with 5/8-27 fittings) and any number of useful gadgets.
Throw a 30lb stage weight on the stand and it will not move even during an earthquake. (I went through a 6.2 in Mexico with a Decca tree at 14'. A lot of shaking, but nothing came down)
All the best,
Mark

[Plush]

Mark's suggestions of using the Ultimate Support stands are echoed here. They are easily the best tall stands out there.

My advice might differ from others because you have to try various heights to know if the organ requires big stands to reach the level of the pipes.

It is known that organ builders voice the organ to be heard at congregation level. That does not mean recording with mics that would be at seat level. What it means is that you can often have success with a regular stand at 12-14ft---far below the height of the pipes.

You just have to experiment.

The reverberation time in the church often is the biggest determining factor in letting you know if you have to be close in to the instrument.

[gardinen]

Hmm...seems like I forgot to subscribe to my own thread. Anyway, very nice suggestions. I could get some pictures from inside the church...since I have free access to it and all

The later problems should be what microphones to use and how to get them.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

It might help to remember that organs generally are balanced to sound good at normal ear height, so a decent recording can often be done just above that height somewhere in the middle of the church. Close micing the organ is a bit artificial and will get a lot of hisses and noises that more or less disappear at a distance.

I have never met a voicer over 6feet tall-- hence that is the height they are "voiced for." However, you should try to get higher for several reasons:

- avoid floor reflections
- avoid as much audience noise as possible
- the gallery rail may mask divisions that are in the main case when you are close enough to get adequate articulation

The Black Tower is a real bargain, and when more extension is needed the one that AEA makes enables over 30ft of elevation. Just be VERY careful when setting up!!!!

Rich

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by mas

How stable is that stand? Would you still feel comfortable if you mounted a decca tree on it at full extension?

Organ Newb question: Why would one use a Decca Tree on an organ? Wouldn't a Tree in front of an organ pick up most of the organ with the center mic first, thus narrowing the image?

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Organ Newb question: Why would one use a Decca Tree on an organ? Wouldn't a Tree in front of an organ pick up most of the organ with the center mic first, thus narrowing the image?

While I'm not a Decca Tree fan, in practice it has the same strong and weak points recording a large pipe organ that it has recording an orchestra. The need for Outriggers is probably called for and you'll need to adjust the center balance during the loudest parts to keep the image from collapsing to mono. One of the really strong benefits of the Decca tree is its stable center image created with less level from the center mic than the M3. Haas effect can be your friend.......
Also, there's no reason you couldn't use an M3 instead of the tree if the leading center wasn't working.
I've said it before, I don't particularly like the mono center mic in any array. For me it just makes the stereo image a little wonky. I'm much more likely to use a true stereo array rather than one with a paned (phantom) mono center.
As always YMMV.
All the best,
mark

[sonare]

I agree with Mark, and add that precise imaging is not usually a requirement for organs.

For me, the first thing I'll try is spaced omnis, and go from there. How wide? It depends.....

Rich