Best way to record Saxophone. Tips and Trick Highly appreciated

[Fredofrog]

G'Day from Australia,
My name is Igor and I am professional sax player from Sydney/Australia.
I play what they call now “Smooth Jazz” (also known as L.A. style) music, which requires that sax to be recorded extremely well and clean. My current channel strip in my private studio where I recorded all of my albums is: AKG 414 in to Avalon 737 (no compression or EQ, just preamp) and in to Delta 1010 sound card (I like the sound of Delta 1010). I am reasonably happy with the results but would like to hear your professional opinion on the unaltered recorded sound (wav file attached) and any constrictive suggestions that will help me to get even better results. I am currently working on my new album and would appreciate any tips or tricks on the microphone placement for soprano, alto and tenor sax for this particular style (I am quite familiar with microphone 6” from the bell position) and any tips on EQ, compression and reverb for this type of music. Looking forward to your creative input.
WOW, my first post
Regards,
IGOR
IGOR Smooth and silky saxophone

[hle144]

No tricks for me. I just put that mic right in front of the bell. Maybe 6 inches away.
Reed instuments are very expressive as you know. Its all about you.

IMHO:
My 1st choice would be a Coles 4038 or Royer 122 if it was ensemble. If you were a new client, I would probably try to impress you and throw up a U47 for all your solo parts.

These mics would then be headed towards a V72, V76, Neve 10 series, or an API 512c depending on the mood. Maybe my special Pultec Mb-1 if you were super nice

This chain is so happening that you can use any channel eq to carve as needed. And a Pultec Eqp 1a at the end because we can.

Usually no compression, Unless its a Ba6a or 33609.

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by hle144

IMHO:
My 1st choice would be a Coles 4038 .

me too

[hle144]

I heard the .wav file. Nice work. Good pitch. Sonically a little cold.

"warm" that sax up. Usually a nice ribbon mic will take that 2k-5k "honk" out of the sound. Tube mic pre is a good idea as well. If you are recording and selling albums, you owe it to yourself and your work to preserve the cleanest sound possible in the digital domain. Most of us are doomed to the cold digital realm, in or out of the box. Lets not try to encourage the coldness with condenser mics on reed instruments or brass for that matter.

Thanks for letting me vent a little. All the summer interns are at the studio and its like day camp sometimes. Most of them are relatives of clients or upper management so its nice to vent in a forum where people actually understand.

Thanks again

[kjcoral]

i had the best success with a U87 back about 10 to 13 inches or so off the bell, ever so slightly below into a nice xfmr-in, xfmr out pre with a light bit of comp. the sax player was a grumpy type but loved the sound on playback, so...FWIW...

[kjcoral]

btw, that was tracked to 2" 24-track tape at +4...

[lukejs]

HI... I´ve played soprano and alto, and have my opinion about how a sax sounds.... (from something I read....) the WHOLE instument vibrates...not just sound coming from the bell... It said something like ..... try one mic around 10 inches straight up from the bell , pointing toward the curve of the sax, and another mic about 6 feet over the sax pointing straight down towards the other middle of the sax. . In the DAW, move the distant mic forward about 6 miliseconds to make up for phase problems... experiment with the exact number of samples you have to move this track so as to get as close to phase coherent as possible. I read about this technique somewhere..... go try it, and report back.... ( If it were me....I´d make it a small diaphragm condenser closer to the sax, and a tube mic on top.... but....I don´t know what I´m talking about .... )

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by hle144

No tricks for me. I just put that mic right in front of the bell. Maybe 6 inches away.
Reed instuments are very expressive as you know. Its all about you.

IMHO:
My 1st choice would be a Coles 4038 or Royer 122 if it was ensemble. If you were a new client, I would probably try to impress you and throw up a U47 for all your solo parts.

These mics would then be headed towards a V72, V76, Neve 10 series, or an API 512c depending on the mood. Maybe my special Pultec Mb-1 if you were super nice

This chain is so happening that you can use any channel eq to carve as needed. And a Pultec Eqp 1a at the end because we can.

Usually no compression, Unless its a Ba6a or 33609.

A HUGE+1 on the Coles 4038

[elpezpr]

I use a 414 or a M49 about 10" from the bell at about player's neck height angled towards the curve. Ussually a Focusrite 8 or a API512.

[Steffmo]

The 737 should be fine for smooth jazz stuff. I would probably go for something like the Coles, although a Neumann tlm193, which is a bit dark, has worked for me also.

I've done a lot of great sax guys with a C12VR, and they liked it, but I'm not sure that would be the right choice for what you are doing. Still, might be worth a listen with the 737.

A lot of folks around here are not 737 fans, but in your application it makes a lot of sense.

Soprano sax works really well with 2 mics, one on the bell and one about 8 inches down the body or the sax. Sometime the same can work on alto or tenor. Adds some air to the sound.

[doorknocker]

The Beyer M160 would also be a good choice. I have no big experience with recording saxes, but the M160 worked really well when I first did so.

What hasn't been mentioned so far is the room. Saxes are really loud and 'sharp' instruments and therefore the room reflexions will be very important. Pay attention not only to the position of the mic but also the position of the horn/player in the room, mic height, floor, etc

I wouldn't mic the sax too close anyway because most players will move the horn some.

[minus-sounds.com]

A ribbon or a Senn MD441 or at the lowend a MD421

[Grizzly]

If I had to record a saxophone the way you play it on the wav. file you posted, I'd definitely use either a Coles 4038 or an AEA R-84 (no EQ nor COMP), in a Fearn or Phoenix pre (but the Avalon would work ok), in order to bring up some warmth from the lows and most of all get rid of the honky harshness that can make brass instruments extremely fatiguing for the ears and boring for the listener...

If no ribbon mic is available for the session, try to grab a less aggressive condenser - I would personnally keep the C-414 away from any brass showing up in the studio...

Have a good time,

Olivier.

[macrae11]

A ribbon or a Senn MD441

+1

the 441 is a great mic for sax(and many other things) I did a tenor sax recording yesterday with one that turned out great.

441 about 6-8 inches away from the bell, pointing just abover the bell, about where the players left hand pinky is. U87 about 4-5' away. I don't really like the sound of a mic pointed directly in the bell. It can make low notes a bit overpowering and higher notes sound hollow.

Your sample I think would fit very well in a busy mix as it does have some cut to it. However if it was going to be a more solo piece as I think you are doing, I would recommend a moving coil or ribbon mic to warm it up a bit. If you have a good space a room mic can make a sax come alive.

All this being said, it's all about the player. Yesterdays player had played with Louie Armstrong, Oscar Peterson, Dutch Mason and countless others. He's getting up there in years so he's not as fast as some horn players i've worked with, but he's got tone for miles.

[Flymax]

Try recording in different spaces as the ROOM will make a HUGE difference!

[Saxophonick]

Hello Igor,

I am a sax player also(Soprano,Alto,Tenor) and have been interested in the "quest" for the most kickass recording method of sax since 8 years approx and have some favorites in a lot of different styles and contexts.
The experiences I have are mostly in larger studios, where besides being a sax player/arranger I have had the opportunity to test a lot of mikes and pres with very cool people around.
I want to say first I'm not at all into smooth jazz, yet I hope to provide you some useful info.
You have a nice reedy sound,with a touch of breath and a cool vibe going on IMO but the recording is fairly thin,emphasises on more aggressive hi-mids (brassy hi-mids which you have naturally I hear, so here for me it's too accentuated and needs to be tamed in those specific frequencies: ditch that AKG 414 unless you're using it succesfully on other sources of course) and since you are projecting the sound quite strongly, the mic position tends to pick up especially what comes from the bell and the upper front part of the sax:the more direct-in-yo-face sound or "power"
(for me a LOT of the "smoothness", essence and "vibe" of the sound comes from the right side of the sax where the holes are: listened and tested carefully)
if you want a fuller, more balanced sound like you hear from yourself when playing acoustic it might be a good idea to work with 2 microphones(
or other alternatives=see below)
The results depend on a lot of things(IMHO, from experience:room,mic,cables,instrument,yourself,mouthpiece,reed, humidity, the people you work with and the mood you're in).
*For a deep,mellow,rich,broad alto-tenor tone reminiscent of certain "50's&60's jazz classics" but with more modern detail and that nearly never will sound aggressive(unless you're playing aggressively...)=
1 AEA R84 (my favorite for 75% jazz/smooth/blues/retro) aimed slightly towards the sax(+/-30°)
with the top of the mic's body at the height of the sax's neck's curve
(where the Selmer sign shines) and aimed slightly to the right side of
the sax.
1 Character preamp(Tube or SS)= the character tube pre will smoothen
the sound even more due to it's "slower" nature and will give a rich
tone(The VT737 might be a bit too much "HiFi" sounding for this
:I don't consider this one to be a character tube pre-might even
contribute even more to the aggressive I hear in your clip IMHO)
that's suitable for any style where "accuracy meets sweet & full"
Nice tube pre's for sax with AEA= UA 610-Manley-V72-TLaudio Ivory
(yes!I doubted it due to hearing several instruments recorded through
it and noticed something weird with the transients, kind of "sloppy"
or"hazey" sound(I might not be the best "describer" around..) but
on the saxes(and electric guitars) it really gave a retro touch that
suited a particular blues-funk session very well)
The SS character pre's(Neve and cousins,80's-console pre's
like SSL-DDA will be obviously faster in response and
more upfront, and more cutting through the mix.
THIS COMBO(either tube or SS)
will provide a fuller sound, not only the whole
spectrum, but also the subtleties I hear in your playing, burried away
in the clip's recording.The AEA here is amazing because it's only
one mic, yet you will hear more dimension and width then with the
AKG 414, as if the mic took as much from the front as the sides,
giving a wider image in the mix and a more pleasant sound to listen to,
albeit without the need of equing the sax too much, or at all!,
especially in those "screaming" himid freqs.
* For a "Stan Getz" vibe with lots of breath, proximity, clear & rich sound
(tenor especially-in fact ANY smooth vibe)=
1 Vintage Neumann U87 aiming at the bell(approx 70°), but the mic
height ABOVE the neck(good room sound a must) from 3-4".
Again aimed slightly to the right side of the sax
This captures a lot from the bell and right side first, as the capsule
is aimed downwards and the projecting sound of the middle keys
is less direct in that way.
This required a lot of efforts from me to get the sound right:
I really had to fill the instrument and making it resonate without
projecting too much, and playing softer then I used to to
provide an intimate,close,warm sound as if you play "in people's ears"
This allowed the engineer to give me MUCH more gain on the input
and capture a big,smooth, sound: if you just play a little softer
with stronger moments:the engineer cannot give you more gain
(or must compress the heck out of you while tracking=yuktutt)
so the full moments sound OK and the soft ones really tiny
and distant, so I had to play as soft as I had ever played and although
I felt while playin it was weird and was going to be way too soft
it gave opposite results= it was just sooo warm, big and wide.
Since then I tried whenever possible to play the softest possible
while still giving power and that was a bigger improvement to my
sound then any microphone I had ever tried(valid for lotsa other
instruments as well especially kick&snare/other horns/rhodes
guitar/bass....), though playing with
loud guitar players on the other side forced me to be able to
blow my ass off and making my horn burn...whatever.
As a complement to the Vintage Neumann 87 setup(with good room)
I don't think any decent high end pre could ruin your take, and it's
just a matter of what color,presence,fast/slow character you want.
However again I think that the Avalon is harsh and...just too weird
on sax(never had ANY good memory of a VT737, might just not suit
me at all)
I had the opportunity to try an A-designs Pacifica lately...but not on
sax g*dd*mn*d! and hearing it on vocals,keyboards,synths,bass, and
acoustic guitar made me drool like a fat pitbull just imagining this
one on sax...r....blublblub...
It sounds so smooth,detailed,deep,rich I can only think it must be a
good match for sax and good mics:ANYBODY TRIED PACIFICA ON SAX?
If you have a clip PLEASE post it !
*For an ultra wide sax with even balance and lots of details and subtleties
of playing:
2 mic set-up: 1 Vintage Neumann U87(or Gefell M900=a little smoother
but more modern sounding then U87)=FRONT
1 Gefell UM92(or Neumann U47Tube=THE side/room mic
for sax...but priceeey)= SIDE
I was sitting when using this set-up, with the alto/tenor at the right
of my legs.
The U87 was aimed at the right side keys and the bell, at the height of the neck, while the Gefell UM92 was 3-4 feet away to the right at the height of the lowest part of the sax with top of the mic body at the height
of the low B-key.
Pre=straight to DDA console pre.
Now whats' interesting here is the panning possibilities: example:
front mic=left 10%---side mic=right 30%=this gives a wiiiiide huuuge sound.
You might want to try for yourself wich panning works best in a given song.
What's more: you can blend in more "body"(side) or power(front) at taste.
The first sax experiences I had with 2 microphones(wow, this sounds like
gear-porn) where discouraging because of a rather sucky engineer,
the results being out of phase mud,bad choices of mics, resonant concrete room with one or two carpets?*!?!!? so I stayed away from it for some time not knowing it was possible to make it work beautifully.
But now whenever I record a sax, especially if I(or another) am alone=
multimics per horn in a section is a mess of omnipresent bleed, I go for two mics(not true for AEA R84=2 try urgently!!!) and the results are never disappointing, because if I want one front mike after all, I just mute the side mic, end of story.
*For any power-playing sound in songs with fat riffs-n-hooks-pumping sax solo's---whatever needs higher energy sax=
1 Vintage Neumann U87(will cut through more then the AEA R84
altough if you find your sound too bright-edgy
you might wanna use this one right away
instead of equing afterwards)
Will do very fine, while maintaining the full content of your playing,
will sit in the mix very well, will take some serious amount of SPL
if you wanna blow it through the roof(possibly distorting nicely
if you push it real hard-more like a kind of
subtle compression=that's how I hear it, is it possible?anyone?
or am I blaspheming?)


I think your sax would sound more balanced,wider,even,full with two mics
(or the AEA R84)and the subtleties in your playing could be more present then, if you want to, because you have 'em, I hear 'em far way;really adds to the depth of the music,IMO
I often wondered why we saxes would spend so much time on working the instrument to the most subtle details, and I think saxes have A LOT of subtleties to offer, if in the end all you hear is the projecting brassy sound?
(Often in pop music-mainstream, sorry poppies...)
Some styles of music don't require "subtlety", and most people who have not worked with saxes a lot, listened to intimate jazz records or simply don't think a sax sound matters THAT much(I know quite a few who don't even listen acoustically to us before miking hmmm..) are used to hear a sax sound "in" a mix and thus not hearing the detail of it like with vocals
for example=result=there won't be any attention to those details that can really color the music and add life to it, instead some of our nice frequencies will be cut off hard(lows and low mids) and the himids highs boosted like we are guitar players-all the little details will be gated away(if it's disturbing key-noises then you have to, although sometimes even those noises can be musical)=result=lot of nasal sounding-metal-duck-on-speed sound that is REALLY not how the sax sounds in real life.
I am well aware that to mix a tune you sometimes need to alter the sound extremely to make it fit in: well gentlemen take away from other guys: I've had it with this thin sounding-far away sounding saxes-push that saxy fader up and you won't regret it

Igor, If you want more specific info or some audio examples, just PM me, I'll see what I can do, hope I've been helpful, good luck with your
"quest" for the right gear,

Best,

Saxophonick

[FossilTooth]

Originally Posted by hle144

No tricks for me. I just put that mic right in front of the bell. Maybe 6 inches away.

That's funny... My first piece of advice was going to be "Never point a mic directly at the bell".

Well, to each their own, I guess. I just feel like the sound you get by cramming a mic in the bell doesn't sound much like a saxaphone at all.

It's NOT a trumpet. That's not where all the sound comes out of. Usually much better off aiming nearer to where the body meets the bell, off-axis with the bell, pointing toward the keys, or between the keys and bell (unless the pads are in terrible shape). Now THAT sounds like a saxaphone.

However, we've all probably heard enough saxaphones recorded with an re20 stuffed in the bell that I suppose it's a passable tone on a recording... even if it has nothing to do with the way a sax actually sounds in a room.

...But then again, I suppose that's not what it's always about. In the 80's it was very popular to have snare drums sounds that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the way a snare drum actually sounds. That can be cool sometimes. I love a good Tears For Fears snare.

That said, I still wouldn't point a mic directly at the bell of a sax.

U87's are nice, another +1 for the 4038 here as well. I've have good results with a 4050 as well if nothing vibey-er is at hand. It all depends on what you're going for.

[lukejs]

Originally Posted by Saxophonick

Hello Igor,

I am a sax player also(Soprano,Alto,Tenor) and have been interested in the "quest" for the most kickass recording method of sax since 8 years approx and have some favorites in a lot of different styles and contexts.
The experiences I have are mostly in larger studios, where besides being a sax player/arranger I have had the opportunity to test a lot of mikes and pres with very cool people around.
I want to say first I'm not at all into smooth jazz, yet I hope to provide you some useful info.
You have a nice reedy sound,with a touch of breath and a cool vibe going on IMO but the recording is fairly thin,emphasises on more aggressive hi-mids (brassy hi-mids which you have naturally I hear, so here for me it's too accentuated and needs to be tamed in those specific frequencies: ditch that AKG 414 unless you're using it succesfully on other sources of course) and since you are projecting the sound quite strongly, the mic position tends to pick up especially what comes from the bell and the upper front part of the sax:the more direct-in-yo-face sound or "power"
(for me a LOT of the "smoothness", essence and "vibe" of the sound comes from the right side of the sax where the holes are: listened and tested carefully)
if you want a fuller, more balanced sound like you hear from yourself when playing acoustic it might be a good idea to work with 2 microphones(
or other alternatives=see below)
The results depend on a lot of things(IMHO, from experience:room,mic,cables,instrument,yourself,mouthpiece,reed, humidity, the people you work with and the mood you're in).
*For a deep,mellow,rich,broad alto-tenor tone reminiscent of certain "50's&60's jazz classics" but with more modern detail and that nearly never will sound aggressive(unless you're playing aggressively...)=
1 AEA R84 (my favorite for 75% jazz/smooth/blues/retro) aimed slightly towards the sax(+/-30°)
with the top of the mic's body at the height of the sax's neck's curve
(where the Selmer sign shines) and aimed slightly to the right side of
the sax.
1 Character preamp(Tube or SS)= the character tube pre will smoothen
the sound even more due to it's "slower" nature and will give a rich
tone(The VT737 might be a bit too much "HiFi" sounding for this
:I don't consider this one to be a character tube pre-might even
contribute even more to the aggressive I hear in your clip IMHO)
that's suitable for any style where "accuracy meets sweet & full"
Nice tube pre's for sax with AEA= UA 610-Manley-V72-TLaudio Ivory
(yes!I doubted it due to hearing several instruments recorded through
it and noticed something weird with the transients, kind of "sloppy"
or"hazey" sound(I might not be the best "describer" around..) but
on the saxes(and electric guitars) it really gave a retro touch that
suited a particular blues-funk session very well)
The SS character pre's(Neve and cousins,80's-console pre's
like SSL-DDA will be obviously faster in response and
more upfront, and more cutting through the mix.
THIS COMBO(either tube or SS)
will provide a fuller sound, not only the whole
spectrum, but also the subtleties I hear in your playing, burried away
in the clip's recording.The AEA here is amazing because it's only
one mic, yet you will hear more dimension and width then with the
AKG 414, as if the mic took as much from the front as the sides,
giving a wider image in the mix and a more pleasant sound to listen to,
albeit without the need of equing the sax too much, or at all!,
especially in those "screaming" himid freqs.
* For a "Stan Getz" vibe with lots of breath, proximity, clear & rich sound
(tenor especially-in fact ANY smooth vibe)=
1 Vintage Neumann U87 aiming at the bell(approx 70°), but the mic
height ABOVE the neck(good room sound a must) from 3-4".
Again aimed slightly to the right side of the sax
This captures a lot from the bell and right side first, as the capsule
is aimed downwards and the projecting sound of the middle keys
is less direct in that way.
This required a lot of efforts from me to get the sound right:
I really had to fill the instrument and making it resonate without
projecting too much, and playing softer then I used to to
provide an intimate,close,warm sound as if you play "in people's ears"
This allowed the engineer to give me MUCH more gain on the input
and capture a big,smooth, sound: if you just play a little softer
with stronger moments:the engineer cannot give you more gain
(or must compress the heck out of you while tracking=yuktutt)
so the full moments sound OK and the soft ones really tiny
and distant, so I had to play as soft as I had ever played and although
I felt while playin it was weird and was going to be way too soft
it gave opposite results= it was just sooo warm, big and wide.
Since then I tried whenever possible to play the softest possible
while still giving power and that was a bigger improvement to my
sound then any microphone I had ever tried(valid for lotsa other
instruments as well especially kick&snare/other horns/rhodes
guitar/bass....), though playing with
loud guitar players on the other side forced me to be able to
blow my ass off and making my horn burn...whatever.
As a complement to the Vintage Neumann 87 setup(with good room)
I don't think any decent high end pre could ruin your take, and it's
just a matter of what color,presence,fast/slow character you want.
However again I think that the Avalon is harsh and...just too weird
on sax(never had ANY good memory of a VT737, might just not suit
me at all)
I had the opportunity to try an A-designs Pacifica lately...but not on
sax g*dd*mn*d! and hearing it on vocals,keyboards,synths,bass, and
acoustic guitar made me drool like a fat pitbull just imagining this
one on sax...r....blublblub...
It sounds so smooth,detailed,deep,rich I can only think it must be a
good match for sax and good mics:ANYBODY TRIED PACIFICA ON SAX?
If you have a clip PLEASE post it !
*For an ultra wide sax with even balance and lots of details and subtleties
of playing:
2 mic set-up: 1 Vintage Neumann U87(or Gefell M900=a little smoother
but more modern sounding then U87)=FRONT
1 Gefell UM92(or Neumann U47Tube=THE side/room mic
for sax...but priceeey)= SIDE
I was sitting when using this set-up, with the alto/tenor at the right
of my legs.
The U87 was aimed at the right side keys and the bell, at the height of the neck, while the Gefell UM92 was 3-4 feet away to the right at the height of the lowest part of the sax with top of the mic body at the height
of the low B-key.
Pre=straight to DDA console pre.
Now whats' interesting here is the panning possibilities: example:
front mic=left 10%---side mic=right 30%=this gives a wiiiiide huuuge sound.
You might want to try for yourself wich panning works best in a given song.
What's more: you can blend in more "body"(side) or power(front) at taste.
The first sax experiences I had with 2 microphones(wow, this sounds like
gear-porn) where discouraging because of a rather sucky engineer,
the results being out of phase mud,bad choices of mics, resonant concrete room with one or two carpets?*!?!!? so I stayed away from it for some time not knowing it was possible to make it work beautifully.
But now whenever I record a sax, especially if I(or another) am alone=
multimics per horn in a section is a mess of omnipresent bleed, I go for two mics(not true for AEA R84=2 try urgently!!!) and the results are never disappointing, because if I want one front mike after all, I just mute the side mic, end of story.
*For any power-playing sound in songs with fat riffs-n-hooks-pumping sax solo's---whatever needs higher energy sax=
1 Vintage Neumann U87(will cut through more then the AEA R84
altough if you find your sound too bright-edgy
you might wanna use this one right away
instead of equing afterwards)
Will do very fine, while maintaining the full content of your playing,
will sit in the mix very well, will take some serious amount of SPL
if you wanna blow it through the roof(possibly distorting nicely
if you push it real hard-more like a kind of
subtle compression=that's how I hear it, is it possible?anyone?
or am I blaspheming?)


I think your sax would sound more balanced,wider,even,full with two mics
(or the AEA R84)and the subtleties in your playing could be more present then, if you want to, because you have 'em, I hear 'em far way;really adds to the depth of the music,IMO
I often wondered why we saxes would spend so much time on working the instrument to the most subtle details, and I think saxes have A LOT of subtleties to offer, if in the end all you hear is the projecting brassy sound?
(Often in pop music-mainstream, sorry poppies...)
Some styles of music don't require "subtlety", and most people who have not worked with saxes a lot, listened to intimate jazz records or simply don't think a sax sound matters THAT much(I know quite a few who don't even listen acoustically to us before miking hmmm..) are used to hear a sax sound "in" a mix and thus not hearing the detail of it like with vocals
for example=result=there won't be any attention to those details that can really color the music and add life to it, instead some of our nice frequencies will be cut off hard(lows and low mids) and the himids highs boosted like we are guitar players-all the little details will be gated away(if it's disturbing key-noises then you have to, although sometimes even those noises can be musical)=result=lot of nasal sounding-metal-duck-on-speed sound that is REALLY not how the sax sounds in real life.
I am well aware that to mix a tune you sometimes need to alter the sound extremely to make it fit in: well gentlemen take away from other guys: I've had it with this thin sounding-far away sounding saxes-push that saxy fader up and you won't regret it

Igor, If you want more specific info or some audio examples, just PM me, I'll see what I can do, hope I've been helpful, good luck with your
"quest" for the right gear,

Best,

Saxophonick

Hey.... I just copied and pasted your post to a word document.... I´ll save it as a reference for sax recording !!! Thanks !!!!

[Saxophonick]

Originally Posted by lukejs

Hey.... I just copied and pasted your post to a word document.... I´ll save it as a reference for sax recording !!! Thanks !!!!

Glad to share some info

PS: depending the player/wanted results all the mentioned setups may vary
in distance/angles a few inch to a feet more:
another setup:
* For absolute true reproduction of the sax-sound(solo-recording,piano-sax duo,classical stuff--):
1 DPA 4006(other similar models could work also) in an excellent room
(this mic is so sensitive but capable of wonders in a right room=
if you're not sure about your room(standing waves-nasty resonances)
find the best sounding room you can afford:tip= woody rooms
are excellent-look for a medium sized to larger one)
Place it 2-3-4 feet away from the sax(this one is really to try for
yourself:experiment with distance,height) and height between head-height of the player and above angled to the room(45°).
AT FIRST=listen how the sax sounds in this room= is the sound
projecting a lot, listen with your head closer to the ground, get on
a chair and listen more from the ceiling, listen closely to the sax
player(if he's not blowin his lungs out of course) listen from
the corners of the room etc...
While you're setting this up for a sax, don't give him a headphone
mix yet(if intended: move the mic around,higher,lower,more downwards angled etc...) and if you listened carefully it will be quite
obvious where it sounds right.
If in doubt or several propositions= record them and let the sax
hear them, he likely will know what sound he's looking for.
The most traditional rich sound with vibe would be straight to tape, but
the sky's the limit: here with the DPA AND a good room(and a good player
of course) it's 90% of the sound, so whether going tubepre,SS-pre
is a matter of taste, just be careful with tube-pres with lower headroom/
easy distortion/smearing sound it might darken and blur the room sound too much or too fast-in yo face-SS pre's might take away the ambient
aspect of sound, emphasizing on the projection more than the combination
of instru+room.

Ahh mics I disliked for sax= AKG 414-AKG Solidtube-Newer Neumanns
U87AI's,Sennheisers MD421(OK in particular contexts:section
work-dirty projecting sound- but not too subtle and requires ALOT
of eq=however I have a 1960's MD421=a different beast=much
smoother and harmonically rich-but RE20 will be better than it
in most cases)

Other options : old SM58 did wonders (lofi-old sound), SM57 as a front mic
in a 2 mic setup: very 'forward' sounding: good for "dirty"
funk/jazz/whatever, Neumann TLM 103(altough it sounds
narrow it can do the job if you need to put the sax in a
tiny place in the mix, can cut through nicely, but depth
and width isn't one of his strength), Neumann M149:
equivalent to U87 but wider sound, much smoother,
Coles 4038: very retro-silky horns sound(still prefer the
AEA R84 as it is richer souding and bigger IMHO), Neumann
U67 might even be a better complement if you have a very
bright-hi-mid sound, than U87: U67 is somehow darker
and can do deeper jazz vibe, not as much hifreq openness
, really good one---Had already beautiful results with a
low cost Rode NT1000 also: works very well if you are
"following" a singer musically(answers, little phrases..)
because it sits right in the mix without being too present

[top]leaves the vocal in front while staying behind without
too much eq-in fact I find the Rode mic to be very musical.
Brauners do excellent as well(VM-1

in the same trend
as Gefells/U47 but really hi-end definition, I think a little
more hyped in the highz), Brauner Phantom C= very cheap
and a good complement with tube pres for sax: it's a very
fast mic, in the same style of sound as U87, but with
very clean/clear highs, though not as smooth as U87
(need to tame some highs here depending on the sound:
works very well with darker sax sounds)

Best,

Nicolas

[CafeEP]

As a saxophone player I notice when famous producers/engineers talk about what saxophone microphone they would use.

I've read a couple of people who swear by the RCA DX77

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Jim Williams]

Ribbons might be good for an old sound, not for the format you want.

I use reworked 414B's, the flat one. I place the mic about 2~3 feet away pointing at the center of the valves. Sticking a mic towards the bell gives a 60's "Yakkity Sax" tone, only great for irritating old rock records.

This is "smooth" jazz, that won't do. I have done this technique with several players like Marty Kristal and it's real wide and smooth, with all the details, air, clicking valves, sort of like what the player hears when he plays. (They like that!)

I also had great results with trumpet and muted trumpet with this mic. Rick Braun uses one of these modified mics on all his records, he brings it with him to the sessions. Yes, sometimes the AE's balk when he pulls it out, but once they hear it they shut up. Listen to "Grazing in the Grass" with Boney James and you will hear it. Rick also said the flugelhorn with the 414 was the best reproduction of his horn he's ever heard. He should know.

Even Grover Washington Jr. used a custom clip on mic that had a small gooseneck that he placed the capsule above the soprano sax to avoid the Yakkity sound Kenny G. is known for.

These guys are the leaders of the field, I respect their opinions much more than any AE has to say about it, they know when it sounds right, their sound, not the AE's sound.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Fredofrog]

Hi everyone,
Thank you very much for your help. I am going to try AEA R84 + TRP preamp. Also, I have contacted audioupgrades.com (does anybody out there have dealt with them in the past?) to see if they can modify my current AKG 414 B-ULS to suit my needs. I will post the results in the near future.

Best Regards to all of you good people.
IGOR
www.igor.com.au

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Ribbons might be good for an old sound, not for the format you want.

I use reworked 414B's, the flat one. I place the mic about 2~3 feet away pointing at the center of the valves. Sticking a mic towards the bell gives a 60's "Yakkity Sax" tone, only great for irritating old rock records.

This is "smooth" jazz, that won't do. I have done this technique with several players like Marty Kristal and it's real wide and smooth, with all the details, air, clicking valves, sort of like what the player hears when he plays. (They like that!)

I also had great results with trumpet and muted trumpet with this mic. Rick Braun uses one of these modified mics on all his records, he brings it with him to the sessions. Yes, sometimes the AE's balk when he pulls it out, but once they hear it they shut up. Listen to "Grazing in the Grass" with Boney James and you will hear it. Rick also said the flugelhorn with the 414 was the best reproduction of his horn he's ever heard. He should know.

Even Grover Washington Jr. used a custom clip on mic that had a small gooseneck that he placed the capsule above the soprano sax to avoid the Yakkity sound Kenny G. is known for.

These guys are the leaders of the field, I respect their opinions much more than any AE has to say about it, they know when it sounds right, their sound, not the AE's sound.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[jimmyjimjim]

1/ When the saxophone-player enters the studio he will want to warm up.
Look where he places himself, he knows the sound of his horn, and will place himself in the most flattering spot in the room.
This is where you should record him.

2/Do not use a bright microphone.
Use a high-class tube mike, like a 47/49/etc.
OR
a Ribbon mic. Like a coles, M160, RCA, AEA or something in that direction.

3/If your room is not great, place the mic. at the closest spot where your ear hears the whole register of the horn even and in balance. This will be above the bell pointing more or less parallell with the horn.

4/If your room is great, place the mic. further away.

[sapocagon]

I've done my first attempt with 3 mics a the same time. SM58, AKG C1000 placed 3 feet from the musician and a ribbon mic attached to the bell. No phase problems, the ribbon gave the highs and the other two the body. Amazed with the sound achieved. In Spain we say it's "the luck of the rookie", that happens never after. No EQ at all, only a high pass at 100hz and a plate rev that makes it all.

[luigichelli]

Originally Posted by lukejs

Hey.... I just copied and pasted your post to a word document.... I´ll save it as a reference for sax recording !!! Thanks !!!!

+1! )) that's the spirit of GS!

[Rolo 46]

Sax is like Vox
Treat it the same
Not too close.
Give it space and air.

[Greg Curtis]

We see a lot of sax recording at The Bridge. Here are some of the techniques:

TLM170, 193, or U87 at about head level, looking down at the instrument. Into Millennia or Neve console.



4038 or RCA77 or RCA 44, mid instrument or a little higher, looking at the body of the instrument. AEA TRP.

I've never seen anyone shove a dynamic, or anything, down the bell.

For me, ribbon or LDC depends on the gig. Ribbons smooth out the top, LDCs cut a little brighter.

Trumpets, same mics, different placement.

Greg

[Steffmo]

For Tenor I've had great results with C12VR and a 737. I thought the Coles was a tad dark....but as usual sounded great. But I found the C12 needed less eq later.

Soprano, I used to go with 2 mics, the Coles about 6" down from the mouthpieceandf a 441 on the bell, but lately I like the one mic, the Coles because of less issue when the player moves. And then they are hot...they move.

[Jim Williams]

Hi Igor. Hope you are getting good sounds off the 414. It's the same modified mic also used by Eugene Grove, aka Euge Groove for the last 10 years.

I believe experimenting with other mic preamps may also help out.

[7rojo7]

Originally Posted by jimmyjimjim

1/ When the saxophone-player enters the studio he will want to warm up.
Look where he places himself, he knows the sound of his horn, and will place himself in the most flattering spot in the room.
This is where you should record him.

2/Do not use a bright microphone.
Use a high-class tube mike, like a 47/49/etc.
OR
a Ribbon mic. Like a coles, M160, RCA, AEA or something in that direction.

3/If your room is not great, place the mic. at the closest spot where your ear hears the whole register of the horn even and in balance. This will be above the bell pointing more or less parallell with the horn.

4/If your room is great, place the mic. further away.

do you put he mic where he hears it great or where the sound of the inst. is great
It would be alright to put a mic on the headphones or over his head?