tips for better crowd sound?

[Indrestudios]

We record & broadcast a music festival each year and I've never really been happy with the way we capture the crowd. Audience size ranges from 3000 up to 10,000 for the headliners. If I'm on stage, I can hear them singing along & clapping, but it just doesn't translate well to tape.

I usually place a row of 4 shotguns on the front of the stage along with an ORTF pair out at front of house. It just sounds a bit wimpy, not even close to the roar we get indoors. I know it's a challenge, esp. with a sometimes subdued crowd, but I'm sure I can do better. Any words of wisdom out there? -MC

[big country]

I have no experience with 10,000 people, but I would think a Binaural mic
would excel at this.

the shot gun is very directional , the binaural gives you a very spacious stereo sound
it is the most real sounding mic... It mimics the human head by its spacing .
I use PZM mics on mine to eliminate any phase issues.

[MBishopSFX]

AEA R-88, Royer SF-12 or 24 would be some great choices for an effective and natural-sounding audience pickup. A binaural head such as the KU-100 works well, but the ribbons have a smoother, more natural reproduction of applause. The head is a bit difficult to get into the house, too. I'd much rather fly an SF-24 than a KU-100 and the KU-100 is impossible to put out at the end of a long boom pole, etc..

[LX3]

Is there a lighting bar above the front of the stage that you can fly mics from? Although maybe that's where you're putting the shotguns already?...in which case, ignore me

Paul

[cleantone]

I usually place a row of 4 shotguns on the front of the stage along with an ORTF pair out at front of house. It just sounds a bit wimpy, not even close to the roar we get indoors. I know it's a challenge, esp. with a sometimes subdued crowd, but I'm sure I can do better. Any words of wisdom out there?

I think that is a pretty tried and true method. Maybe it is not you or the rig at all. What are you doing for processing after the mic? Are you mixing this later, handing it off, or is it simulcast by chance? I always wondered what they do for simulcast types of things.

[Indrestudios]

thanks for the input. While I'm all for the warmth of ribbons, it's a bit too risky to expose them to the elements (it rained buckets last year & the PA company lost a Yamaha 5D, ugh).

These shows are mixed live for broadcast in our truck (Yamaha 02r96 console) we feed an ISDN line for the radio station. They are simultaneously tracked onto 48 tracks of RADAR & ProTools HD.

[yrplace]

We've had real good luck using pair of AKG 452's on either side of the stage along with either a pair of short shotguns for smaller gigs up to about 5000 or longer ones for big shows. The idea with the shotguns is to point them back toward the sections you can't reach with the short mics so they end up "hearing" a large amount of crowd farther back.

In addition I like to put a pair of omni mics back at the house mix position.

Mark

[big country]

Buy Crown PZM30D Boundary Microphone online at Musician's Friend<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">

find a block of wood on the net and sand it.throw some watco on it .
don't put Watco on where you want to put the PZM's.
then glue some pzms on it.
I drilled a hole in mine at the bottom of the head so it rests on a
Mic stand .

PM me for further questions I wood be glad to help

save your self 7,000 $by not buying the Neumann.

pending on what PZMs you go with your probably looking at
150.-600ish $


I spent 120.00 on mine, I bought the cheapest PZM's .
the wood was left over from a kings fish house build.

I'm sure you will be happy with its sound.

only a days work pending on your skills
and what you do to it . soft wood like mahogany
wood be easiest to machine .

a binaural changes every thing...
when you get it all done your guaranteed to do a happy dance!





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[Jim vanBergen]

In addition to condenser shotguns in line with the PA, I often use the following for broadcast:

-two or more dynamic cardioids (57's) on the lip of the stage
-several lav mics taped to the stage lip or barricades
-a couple of omni dynamics (like Shure SM64s) hiding somewhere in or over the audience, within the first 50'

-if it's a big concert with delays, I put another pair of directional mics behind the mix position and in front of the delays to capture the next section of audience.

And of course, each mic tracks to an isolated track and they are mixed & compressed heavily to taste.

Hope this helps!

JvB

[hle144]

The suggestions above are mind numbing. Try Sound Ideas Hollywood Edge collection of SFX. Mix the samples in with your original crowd recording. I would rather do this and spend time with my girl, then waste precious brain cells on crowd balance.

[Remoteness]

No offence, but what you suggested sounds completely insane to me. YMMV

Forgive me, but you don’t sound like a remote (location) recording engineer…

IMHO, a live recording is all about capturing the true audience response with the proper mic placement for the room or space you’re in.

Canned SFX applause for a music mix is a serious no-no for me.
If you have to use “canned” applause create your own.
Have your stage manager go out before the performance and get (record) a variety of responses from your audience.

And, if you must use “canned’ audience tracks they should (must) be from the same venue the recording is from.

I have a disk of applause tracks from the various venues we’ve recorded in over time.
I’ve used them when applicable to help sweeten the mix.

I would never use applause from one venue to insert into another venue’s session.
But, that’s what I would do and like I’ve said, before… Your mileage may vary!

Originally Posted by hle144

The suggestions above are mind numbing. Try Sound Ideas Hollywood Edge collection of SFX. Mix the samples in with your original crowd recording. I would rather do this and spend time with my girl, then waste precious brain cells on crowd balance.

[huub]

Tim summerhayes from fleetwood mobiles always gets HUGE crowd sounds at festivals, and what he usually puts up is a LOT of ambi mics: for example;
Sennheiser 816 l/r 2x416 l/r, 4x416 up at the light rig above stage aiming fairly far,
couple of mics for first rows (pzm, cardiods, dunno..). Sometimes up to 16 mics..
And foh mics for surround in post only (annoying time difference)..

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

IMHO, a live recording is all about capturing the true audience response with the proper mic placement for the room or space you’re in.

Right on, brother!!!
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[Indrestudios]

Thanks for all the great suggestions - we just finished up the festival (4 days w/ 25 bands!) Due to the threat of severe weather I chose not to bring out the big guns, my mic choices were pretty inexpensive & durable:

(2) Shure SM89 shotguns sr & sl w/rolloff
(2) Shure KSM 27 cardioids down stage center on a stereo bar w/rolloff
(2) 414s in omni out a front of house, clamped to each top corner of the tower

Worked like a charm, I brought up the FOH omnis in-between each song for the "roar" of the crowd. Too much delay to use during the mix, but they really filled out the cheering. The 4 mics downstage captured plenty of crowd for the singalongs & general big ambiance.

I'll try to post some samples online - some of my favorites were:

Cracker
The Smithereens
Suzanne Vega
Cat Empire
Los Lonley Boys
Tower of Power

It's amazing how much easier it was to control the crowd sound when the house guy had a great mix happening. Bad mix = bad room mic sound

-Michael

[Gerax]

Originally Posted by hle144

The suggestions above are mind numbing. Try Sound Ideas Hollywood Edge collection of SFX. Mix the samples in with your original crowd recording. I would rather do this and spend time with my girl, then waste precious brain cells on crowd balance.

dfegad dfegad ...

I've had very good results with multiple mics spread around the venue. I usually get 2 shotguns on the stage (left and right), 3 if the stage is wide, or for DVD releases, so that I put the center shotgun in the C channel to have a wide but not hollow image. They are pointed right at the first rows.
Then I use a second pair of LD cardioids halfway between the stage and FOH, and I usually put them halfway between front and surrounds (this is only done for DVD productions), and then I have a stereo pair (ORTF my favorite) at FOH to get the venue's and PA sound. Obviously everything goes on a dedicated track on the recorder.
Then it's off in mixing, where you have to edit and ride levels on each track to make them fit with the music. I usually keep the front shotguns open only in between songs, to get the first rows crowd noise, shouts, claps, whistles, etc...I usually keep the mid and FOH mics open even during songs, and their level depends on how much room sound the client wants. I like it loud and live , so I tend to mix it way up, and sometimes some producers had me bring it down because they were looking for a more "studio" sound...it depends.
I usually do some time aligning of the FOH mics to the stage to avoid phase problems and slapbacks (when they are really far).
FOH mics go in the surrounds for DVDs. I also noticed I EQ crowd mics to make them fit with the music: sometimes I boost the low end a bit to bring out the roar, sometimes I filter it when it's a bit too much (it usually happens in smaller venues, when the PA's sound is oomphing enough...).
If I have a poor sounding crowd (due to few people, usually this is the main reason) I use to edit sections taken from other points of the same gig in between, so the sound stays consistent.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[Coyoteous]

- free beer and/or strippers?