Jazz trio recording

[echorec]

I´m going to record a jazz trio and would like some suggestions for mic choice and mic placement. Double bass, "standard" jazz kit & a big Bösendorfer grand piano. The studio has a SSL desk and a good selection of mics & outboard.

I´m going to record directly down to 2 track analog tape so there are no "undo´s"

Thanks in advance.

[hollywood_steve]

The room you will be working in is one of the biggest factors that will influence other decisions. I'd like to think that any studio that can afford an SSL desk is going to have a great, large, acoustically excellent live room. But I've learned the hard way that a lot of studios do so little "live" recording that their tracking rooms are barely more than an afterthought, surprising in a high end room like that.

But until you tell us otherwise, I'll assume that they have a good live room. As you are already planning on tracking straight to stereo, you should consider recording through a simple stereo mic setup, with spot mics only if/when you discover problems with the basic pair.

A high end room like that should have an excellent selection of suitable mics and preamps. Plan on spending a good amount of time trying various configurations in different locations.

[echorec]

Thanks Steve,

Yes the room is good, on the dry side.

A stereo mic setup is probably a good idea but I think I need individual mics too.

What would you suggest for the Bösendorfer? I think most of the older Neumann models are available.

I´ve mostly recorded "pop" piano and this is my first jazz recording. Hopefully I´ll get the sound I´m looking for with minimal or no eq/compression.

[djui5]

Any chance you could post a link to the studios site so I can check out the room and mic/gear choices?

[echorec]

Sure, Studio A here:

Polar

Seems like they forgot to post the mic list but they have U47´s, U67´s, U87´s, KM series, Ribbons........

[hollywood_steve]

A stereo mic setup is probably a good idea but I think I need individual mics too.

Why? I'm not arguing with you; I'm curious why you think you will need the other mics?


What would you suggest for the Bösendorfer? I think most of the older Neumann models are available.

This ties back to the question above; do you need to mic the piano separately? Just for discussion purposes, let's assume you do; the options are almost endless...... You mentioned older Neumanns, so how about a SM2 / SM23 stereo mic. Did you plan on mic'ing the individual instruments in stereo, or mono?

These kind of sessions are my favorite as you actually get to hear complete performances in the studio. If the band is up to the task, there is little for you to do other than stay out of the way. Have fun!

[echorec]

Thanks again Steve,

Why individual mics? Well, what if they are doing this magical take and the balance is slightly wrong in some part of the song or there is a solo that needs to be a little bit louder.

I guess I´m not experienced enough in "direct to 2 track" to dare to go with just a stereo pair.

[echorec]

...and it´s my favourite type of session too, no overdubs, gonna be great fun!

[Knastratt]

Put an Calrec Ambisonic in the middle for surround recording. That's the esoteric version.

Or...

Put a MD 421 in front of BD paired with a couple of Brauner VM-1 in overhead position.

And a U87 in front of the double bass.

Finish w 2 Brauner Valvets on top of each other with the grand lid at 45° position. Adjust space to taste.

Mic pres to taste. Why not API's for OH and DW Fearn for kick, NEVE for bass and grand.

Cowboy Junkies did the Ambisonic trail at Trinity sessions. An awfully nice recording. In a church.

[henryrobinett]

I wouldn't trust a stereo pair for a jazz piano trio recording. Few drummers, but the best jazz trio drummers, know how to play dynamically without monitors, with a pianist. The piano is soft compared to drums of course, and it's so, so, so easy for the drummer to overwhlem the piano.

I've done a lot of jazz work. Even Ron Carter inisists on recording with a pickup. I haven't recorded him though! Bass, if it's acoustic bass, can be dreadfully problematic if you only are using a mic. I prefer using the Millennia TD-1 or less so the Evil Twin. I like the TD-1 so much that the last couple of recordings I did I didn't use the mic at all. It depends of course on the make and quality of the bass player's pickup.

Most jazz trios are going to want to be fairly close iin proximity to one another. Eye contact and vibe are paramount.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by henryrobinett
Bass, if it's acoustic bass, can be dreadfully problematic if you only are using a mic.

Henry,

Any suggestions on actual acoustic upright bass pickups that are very high end pro quality?

[echorec]

Thanks guys,

Henry, how do you ususally mic the drum kit?

[echorec]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
Did you plan on mic'ing the individual instruments in stereo, or mono?

Well, my plan was stereo OH + BD + SD on drums, stereo piano & mono bass.

So, 7 faders for me to ride on the SSL

[bongo]

Just because it's direct to 2 track, doesn't mean you can't use iso booths. I've never met a acoustic bass pick-up I liked. Micing a bass in a room with drums is really challenging tp say the least. Out of curiosity, who made the decision to go direct to 2?

[henryrobinett]

Sorry Nathan. I don't know of any specific pick ups. I can ask some of my bass playing buddies though.

I usually do the usual for jazz drums. I try have the overheads do the brunt of the work, but I like to have 421s or Audix D2 there on toms to pick up detail if I needed it. But then again I'm not doing 2 track recording. The vibe sound and TIME in jazz is in the cymbals. I like Royer 121s on those. On kick I like the ATM25. Snare I use the ubiquitous SM57.

As for bass? I haven't found that mic that does it for me yet. I've used U67, U87, 414, ADK-tube 51, AEA44c. If you don't have to worry about bleed this is the mic to use. Great bass response and a really great ribbon mic. I like the mic up around the fingerboard and avoid boomy proximity effect by staying away from the sound hole. Where possible I use omni but I've had to use cardiod to reject everything in back. Where I record now I put the bass player in very large isolation room that has a big glass window. THAT works wonders. I just have to convince him that this is a compromise worth talking; not being close to the cats vs better and more controllable sound.

[henryrobinett]

Oh yeah. And I like to Millennia everything. Just me. But I like transparency for jazz, especially a trio. Vocals or horns are a different matter.

As for bass pickups I generally agree about not meeting any good ones, but I've met two I liked. As I said with the Millennia TD-1 it made all the difference too me in the world.

[sonare]

Originally posted by henryrobinett
Sorry Nathan. I don't know of any specific pick ups. I can ask some of my bass playing buddies though.

<snip>

As for bass? I haven't found that mic that does it for me yet. I've used U67, U87, 414, ADK-tube 51, AEA44c. If you don't have to worry about bleed this is the mic to use. Great bass response and a really great ribbon mic. I like the mic up around the fingerboard and avoid boomy proximity effect by staying away from the sound hole. Where possible I use omni but I've had to use cardiod to reject everything in back. Where I record now I put the bass player in very large isolation room that has a big glass window. THAT works wonders. I just have to convince him that this is a compromise worth talking; not being close to the cats vs better and more controllable sound.

Tonight I recorded a terrific bassist named Kengo Nakamura, and when he found out the gig was being recorded he pulled out his own mic-- an RE-27. I was skeptical (especially regarding leakage problems) but it turned out to be terrific-- good definition and plenty of bottom end.

I would have have never thought of a dynamic cardioid and would have used a U-47 if he hadn't been so enthused about his RE-27, and I'm glad I tried it.

Rich

[fifthcircle]

I tend to really dislike the sound of minimalist jazz recordings... I just don't feel like it usually does the music justice. There isn't the intimacy needed for this kind of ensemble and the sound often "washes" out...

My usual jazz trio setup is this. It is small, but not "purist"

drums- stereo microphone in x-y in front of the kit. This is usually an AKG 426, but I've had great luck with the Neumann SM 69 tube or a SM 2 (or23). Similarly a C-34 is also great, but a different sound.... I have had good luck with the Shure VP-88 in front of the drums, too. The MS pickup of that mic helps with the snare sound- especially when the drummer is on brushes. I may touch up the kick with a Sennheiser e602 or 421.

Bass- U47 FET is a favorite, as is the KM-86. The sennheiser 421 is surprisingly good, too (as is the bass player's often favorite RE-20). Depending on the situation, I may add in a bit from an ADL-200 tube direct (or a Demeter tube DI).

Piano- My latest favorite are Microtech M930s. Others I've liked also include Schoeps CMC6MK4, KM 140, U87s (original vintage), and of course 414EB (with CK-12 caps).

I do not use area mics with a group like this, and in a live date with an audience, I'll add rear-facing mics for the audience.

Use a nice plate verb in the mix and some gentle compression/limiting (Vac Rac, Vari-Mu, etc...) With mics like that, you probably won't need much EQ if any...

Mic pres: Vac Rac are a favorite, but I also like Hardy or others that have a bit of color to them... Millennia/Grace are good too, but I personally like a bit more personality than these can deliver.

--Ben

[Yannick]

Lately I've been using a Royer SF12 on the piano - sounds amazing (needs no corrective EQ wherever you put it - no 'weird resonant close miced piano sound').

As for the bass, put, I use a MKH80 on either hypercardioid or figure of eight, and make sure the null is towards the drum.
This works for me in a fairly small and very live room, so it should be OK in a bigger room that is quite dry. You can always add a gobo between bass&drum.

Drum : MS overhead, sometimes in front of the kit, pointing towards the BD.

THE problem with the Bosendorfer is that this thing is actually way too big to close mic. I prefer to keep the mics a bit further away, but then the drums creep in of course.

If you can make sure the bleed on all tracks sounds OK (and the drum mic also has more or less as much bleed of the piano) and doesn't disturb the stereo image (!) the sound will be OK.

Make the musicians adapt to playing without monitoring - they will make their own balance (but never right away)

I record through a Gracedesign 801R, always without compression.

[Beauarts]

I can't stand the sound of a bass pickup on upright. No one talks about using a pickup on classical violin, why use it for acoustic bass? I think it's a sign of laziness. I like a u47 or 221b directly in front of or a few inches above the bridge about 4 inches out. That's my bass, yours may vary. If you put up a gobo you should have all the isolation you need. You can use the bass pickups for monitors if necessary.

Anyone that talks about isolating the musicians and using headphones for a jazz trio doesn't deserve the title of recording engineer.

[echorec]

Originally posted by dim light
Polar, polar studios… I heard they are going to close it down soon… That’s really sad! Maybe you are the last guy touching the faders,

If you meet Stefan… Tell him Pippin rocks! He will understand…

Yeah, that´s very sad indeed.

I think Stefan works at the old Park studio (that the band Kent bought) right now.

[echorec]

Thanks for all the help guys. This forum is great!

[bongo]

I have to disagree with the isolation issue. If the musicians want to play in one room, let them try it. All of the jazz musicians that I record are used to playing with headphones and usually prefer it. The main thing with iso rooms is they have to see each other. If you go the one room route, my suggestion is put them as close together as you can.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Beauarts
I can't stand the sound of a bass pickup on upright. No one talks about using a pickup on classical violin, why use it for acoustic bass? I think it's a sign of laziness. I like a u47 or 221b directly in front of or a few inches above the bridge about 4 inches out. That's my bass, yours may vary. If you put up a gobo you should have all the isolation you need. You can use the bass pickups for monitors if necessary.

Anyone that talks about isolating the musicians and using headphones for a jazz trio doesn't deserve the title of recording engineer.

True I suppose, but a little harsh a bit of a generality. But I'm primarily a jazz musician. I've recorded a LOT of jazz CDs both as a player and as an "engineer". Gobos will NOT work to achieve all the isolation you need. The drums kick major ass right through every gobo and/or combination of gobos I've ever used. This makes the drums and the bass hard to use and get good and acceptable tone from. The compromises are painful. It can be like micing a beautiful and rich bass instrument at an active construction site.

I think of recording as a series of compromises to get the best possible result. Jazz bass is normally recorded with both a mic and a pickup. And experienced bass player will aslo tell you this. He, of all people, and drummers as well, don't want their playing lost in a fog of smear, phase problems and eq hell. I bought a jazz CD recenty where the liner notes bragged and made a point that this was one of the few recordings NOT to use a pickup on the upright bass. This was a CD where John Patitucci was playing and was produced and engineered by one of the Marsalis brothers. And as I earlier stated Ron Carter, jazz bassist of historical proportions claims to ONLY use a pickup. It was liberating to him.

So you can generalize all you want but I'm sure the actual truth of the matter lies somewhere in-between.

[Beauarts]

Originally posted by henryrobinett
True I suppose, but a little harsh a bit of a generality. But I'm primarily a jazz musician. I've recorded a LOT of jazz CDs both as a player and as an "engineer". Gobos will NOT work to achieve all the isolation you need. The drums kick major ass right through every gobo and/or combination of gobos I've ever used. This makes the drums and the bass hard to use and get good and acceptable tone from. The compromises are painful. It can be like micing a beautiful and rich bass instrument at an active construction site.

I think of recording as a series of compromises to get the best possible result. Jazz bass is normally recorded with both a mic and a pickup. And experienced bass player will aslo tell you this. He, of all people, and drummers as well, don't want their playing lost in a fog of smear, phase problems and eq hell. I bought a jazz CD recenty where the liner notes bragged and made a point that this was one of the few recordings NOT to use a pickup on the upright bass. This was a CD where John Patitucci was playing and was produced and engineered by one of the Marsalis brothers. And as I earlier stated Ron Carter, jazz bassist of historical proportions claims to ONLY use a pickup. It was liberating to him.

So you can generalize all you want but I'm sure the actual truth of the matter lies somewhere in-between.

I hear jazz bass recorded all the time with mic and pickup and I can tell in a second. It's like using nutrasweet instead of sugar. Even when you use a only a little. How can we start this thread talking about recording a trio with a stereo pair and end with pickups and iso booths? I think it's a sad state of affairs. I guess if the trio is used to playing balls-to-the-walls in a club all the time this is what they want and need. The rockization of jazz I suppose, so much for artistry. I would just expect the group itself to be sensitive to the bass sound. I never hear anyone talking about using a pickup for piano in this situation.

Yeah, I'm being harsh as a generality. I know what's it's like to really stuggle with the bass in the mix. I just thought this is one session, with a great studio, great mics, small group, etc., where you can actually get it right and not have to compromise.

Good luck and let us know what you use and how it goes.

[henryrobinett]

know what you mean, I suppose, but as for your reference to the rockinization comment, I'm not a rock musician. I have 35 years of experience as a jazz musician. I'm talking experience and knowledge of what is commonly done by great musicians. Yes it would sound better to hear a bass recorded soley from a great mic. But there are logistical problems with this in a real world, live playing situation.

[Yannick]

I you need a pickup for bass, it's the drummers fault

In the real world (especially live) I'll always track the pickup, and a DI from an Egit etc, but those are just for safety.
I almost NEVER use the pickup track (unless it's for the one song where the bass player really really wants this sound)

Oh, before I forget, I always put a contact mic on the (female) vocalist too

[dave-G]

Originally posted by bongo
I have to disagree with the isolation issue. If the musicians want to play in one room, let them try it.

Generally, I agree with your disagreement. I've found on several occasions that if the musicians are in the room together and play WITHOUT headphones, they often "mix" themselves better, and this alone makes our job much easier. Leakage works better, performances are tighter, and I think it's largely because they're hearing the interaction of themselves and each other in the air, in the room!

As for the never-ending bass problem. Leakage is often such a disaster that a good direct is essential. Some super-tight notch-filtering can help make the direct signal much better, as the contact-pickups often highlight some resonances that aren't as problematic in the air. In the mix, I'll cheat to favor the mic significantly when drums and other leakage sources are dynamically softer, and ride to favor the DI when they get hot. This helps to avoid the nutrasweet effect, and can be completely invisible if done carefully.

On the mic side, low gobos can help a lot to "shade" the mic while letting the player see and hear over the top of it. However, even with the best microphone (I like U47s and C800 sans-G), nothing makes for a better bass sound than a great instrument in the hands of a great player. So many basses have intense "hot spots", and so few of their players seem to adjust to them. I recently had the pleasure of recording Reid Anderson (of The Bad Plus) at RPM in New York. That guy has the sickest intonation, amazing control of the sound of his instrument.... and a really even-sounding instrument. He made my job easy.

-dave

[bongo]

If you go to see a jazz trio in a small club, you will notice the only amplification used is the bass. This is because it's the quietest of the three instruments. That means the mic is going to have to be the loudest and will pick up the most of the other instruments. So then you plug in the pickup to compensate for that and the sound sucks.
I don't consider iso rooms a compromise, I consider not being able to put the mic where I want it to be a compromise.
As far as having the players not play with headphones. Are we talking pro players or high school or college students?

[henryrobinett]

Hmm. Live jazz trios the only thing mic'ed is the bass? No. The piano is mic'ed too. I don't know anyone who doesn't mic the piano in a jazz trio format. I play with a piano player (jazz) every week and have done so for years. Never seen him NOT mic the piano.

BTW I'd agree that it's the drummmer fault if there's too much leakage. I tried to say that earlier. Even Chick Corea told me that he's had to work exceptionally hard to get his drummers to play with him acoustically without monitors. He made this move about 10 years ago. He said, "If you can't hear what I'm playing without the piano being monitored, you're playing too loud!" But that's a revolutionary decision from one of the absolute best pianists on the planet. And he has some of the best jazz drummers to be found any where. I'm not sure that lesser mortals would have any easier time of doing this. If each person has a monitor each wants their instrument louder and all dynamics in the music are lost.

The last thing one needs is an engineer who's a purist who f**ks up a recording because he has preconceived ideas of what must work/not work. I've beat myself up over this bass issue. Playing and recording jazz is pretty much all I do. I'd love to be able to use my mics. It sounds better IN THEORY to use a mic instead of a DI. But in practice without the DI there to help, the recordings would have been ruined. And as I said the TD-1 (Millennia) is really the only thing I've used that makes this work as an alternative.