Jazz trio recording

[henryrobinett]

Hmm. Live jazz trios the only thing mic'ed is the bass? No. The piano is mic'ed too. I don't know anyone who doesn't mic the piano in a jazz trio format. I play with a piano player (jazz) every week and have done so for years. Never seen him NOT mic the piano.

BTW I'd agree that it's the drummmer fault if there's too much leakage. I tried to say that earlier. Even Chick Corea told me that he's had to work exceptionally hard to get his drummers to play with him acoustically without monitors. He made this move about 10 years ago. He said, "If you can't hear what I'm playing without the piano being monitored, you're playing too loud!" But that's a revolutionary decision from one of the absolute best pianists on the planet. And he has some of the best jazz drummers to be found any where. I'm not sure that lesser mortals would have any easier time of doing this. If each person has a monitor each wants their instrument louder and all dynamics in the music are lost.

The last thing one needs is an engineer who's a purist who f**ks up a recording because he has preconceived ideas of what must work/not work. I've beat myself up over this bass issue. Playing and recording jazz is pretty much all I do. I'd love to be able to use my mics. It sounds better IN THEORY to use a mic instead of a DI. But in practice without the DI there to help, the recordings would have been ruined. And as I said the TD-1 (Millennia) is really the only thing I've used that makes this work as an alternative.

[PlugHead]

As far as pickups go, many critical musicians use these guys:
www.schertler.com/

I agree, there are few pickups that sound as real as the instrument, tho a bit of a good direct signal may be just enough to help with uncontrolled leakage. I was sooooo glad in the few times I had a good line from the bass when timbales/bells/conga/kit were all over it like white on rice...

best,

[Beauarts]

Originally posted by henryrobinett
know what you mean, I suppose, but as for your reference to the rockinization comment, I'm not a rock musician. I have 35 years of experience as a jazz musician. I'm talking experience and knowledge of what is commonly done by great musicians. Yes it would sound better to hear a bass recorded soley from a great mic. But there are logistical problems with this in a real world, live playing situation.

The rockization comment was directed at players than at you personally. It's about the tendency for everything to be louder, especially drums. I'm a jazz player also, guitar + upright bass. Every time the group plays acoustically, not a frequent occurence, it sounds great. Because the original question had to do with a studio recording, not live, recording sans DI is doable.

Henry
Pittsburgh, PA

[henryrobinett]

Hey beauarts - I think we agree more than we disagree. Perhaps it's just a degree of proportion. I didn't think the rockization comment was directed at me. And I DO completely agree with this sentiment. And I know it's a studio situation. I was referring to studio playing. It's doable with a mic but fraught with problems. I would never recommend NOT using a mic, but rather supplimenting it with a good DI. And make sure ahead of time the bass player brings his good pick up. I know several guys who have at least two for different situations, and often forget to bring the one that's good for recording. Some pus are good for live, volume etc, rather than tone. Less feedback, what have you.

I play guitar too. Hmm. Both engineers. Both jazz musicians. Both guitar players. Both head strong. Both named Henry. Sounds like we have a lot in common!

[bongo]

Hmm. Live jazz trios the only thing mic'ed is the bass? No. The piano is mic'ed too.
I guess I go to smaller clubs!
In the, beginning I must admit to taking the bass direct also. But over the years I used so little or none I stopped using them. I'm sure they are better now. Although when Rufus Reid asked me if I wanted a signal from his pickup and I said "no thank you. He said: no thank you. But that probably comes from engineers using too much of in the mix.

[hollywood_steve]

This has been a real eye-opener. I really did not expect there to be such contradictory opinions on something that almost all of us have some level of experience with. Reading through these posts, its almost hard not to laugh - do we really hear things so differently that one person's favorite method is considered unlistenable by others?

Personally, I swear by a simple stereo pair with spots only as necessary. (no headphones or monitors, the players control the "mix", you know the concept) It has worked for me (and MANY others) and it will continue to do so. Other folks take the exact opposite approach; with many mics going to mulit track and as much isolation as they can achieve. These methods are based on completely contradictory ideas about what is "good." And, of course, there are folks whose methods fit somewhere in between; probably at every possible variation.

Not sure why, but I find this remarkable. I wonder if our differences are just based on our preferences for how we work, or whether it follows through to our opinions on finished "product"? Personally, I abhor many recent jazz recordings where the kick drum and bass both sound like they belong on an overproduced rock album. When you sit in a great sounding jazz club and listen to an acoustic combo, the kick drum and bass are both significantly lower in apparent volume than the other instruments. Thats just the way it is, both on stage and out in the audience. So I find it very strange to listen to a recent recording that has every bass note shake the walls of my apartment. I've been a bass player for just under 30 years now, so I certainly like my bass, but I'd never produce a jazz trio like a rock band. When I hang a stereo pair 15ft out in front of an acoustic jazz trio, the resultant recording sounds like what I heard in the club. When I hear many recordings made with multi-tracked production methods, it sounds nothing like what any acoustic trio has ever sounded like in my years of listening to live combos.

[fifthcircle]

I try avoid using the di in the mix whenever possible. In studio dates, it is usually pretty easy to do. Even with minimal gobos, you can make the bleed more reasonable. The problems arise when you are recording a group and they get excited on the bandstand and the drummer is all you can hear in the bass mic.

Some bass players know how to deal with this in performance. I remember recording a performance where John Clayton was on bass and Steve Houghton was on Drums. Steve tends to be a louder player and John doesn't even have a pickup on his instrument. I used a UM 57 on John and he managed to stand in such a way that his body was the gobo between himself and the drums. The sound was amazing (John also has this huge, beautiful sounding instrument) and no direct was used.

In a big band setting, though, I will always use the DI. Between the brass and the drums... Ugh. That is also why I use the direct boxes that I do... I feel that the ADL 200 will do the least damage to the sound of anything that I've heard.

As for the club comments, when I'm running the PA system. I try to avoid amplifying anything at all. The bass is usually the first to come up and the piano a quick second. In some rooms, if the 2 are in the room mix, I'll add just a touch of drums, not to make it louder, but to keep the same perspective in sound between all the instruments. When some are amplified and others aren't there can be issues with that.

--Ben

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
This has been a real eye-opener. I really did not expect there to be such contradictory opinions on something that almost all of us have some level of experience with. Reading through these posts, its almost hard not to laugh - do we really hear things so differently that one person's favorite method is considered unlistenable by others?

Personally, I swear by a simple stereo pair with spots only as necessary. (no headphones or monitors, the players control the "mix", you know the concept) It has worked for me (and MANY others) and it will continue to do so. Other folks take the exact opposite approach; with many mics going to mulit track and as much isolation as they can achieve. These methods are based on completely contradictory ideas about what is "good." And, of course, there are folks whose methods fit somewhere in between; probably at every possible variation.

Not sure why, but I find this remarkable. I wonder if our differences are just based on our preferences for how we work, or whether it follows through to our opinions on finished "product"? Personally, I abhor many recent jazz recordings where the kick drum and bass both sound like they belong on an overproduced rock album. When you sit in a great sounding jazz club and listen to an acoustic combo, the kick drum and bass are both significantly lower in apparent volume than the other instruments. Thats just the way it is, both on stage and out in the audience. So I find it very strange to listen to a recent recording that has every bass note shake the walls of my apartment. I've been a bass player for just under 30 years now, so I certainly like my bass, but I'd never produce a jazz trio like a rock band. When I hang a stereo pair 15ft out in front of an acoustic jazz trio, the resultant recording sounds like what I heard in the club. When I hear many recordings made with multi-tracked production methods, it sounds nothing like what any acoustic trio has ever sounded like in my years of listening to live combos.

That is the cool thing about recording being an "art." We all have our own take on things...

I too, detest, the overly bass-heavy "modern" jazz recording sound. I dislike the paino and drums being panned from hard right to hard left, etc... Funny thing about the kick in the jazz kit is that it isn't the center of time like it is in a rock group. That duty goes to the hat and the ride with a bit of the snare perhaps...

When I was young, I played in some jam sessions with Jason Marsallis and his drum kit on many of these sessions was a snare and a ride cymbal. It is amazing what sounds can come out of a kit like that when in proper hands.

--Ben

[djui5]

Echorec,
I've been busy so I haven't had time to post...but anyways. Nice room.....any chance you need an assistant? I'd love to work in that place...one of the nicest live room's I've ever seen.

My suggestion would be to get the three so that they can all see and hear each other. I feel that Jazz is a lot of the vibe and feel as stated by someone earlier. It's important to get them into the mood and if you get a little bleed from the mic's then so what...the vibe is there and will transfer to tape.
Secondly I'd get them all set up so they're comfortable and let them play for a bit...then just listen. Then try to place mic's so that all you're doing is copying what you hear to tape. You don't want to mess with the sound...just record what they're playing and what you're hearing. I'd say set a u67 over the drum kit and adjust it untill you're getting a good sound...then if you really need to add a mic to the kick or/and snare. A u87 outside the kick won't hurt. For the piano I'd recommend a pair of u47's in spaced A/B and if need be stick another in the middle for good imaging. For the bass I'm not sure...maybe try a 122 just to see what happens. Maybe a u67..hard to say without a complete mic list and not hearing the bass in the room.
Then comes the room mic's...a highly important part of all this. Set up a couple of room mic's to finish polishing the track off....move them untill you get it right. That's a great room and I'm sure you'll get an amazing sounding track when it's all done.
I'd also stay away from compressors and reverbs and eq's untill you get the best sound you can..then if you have to use them. But clean and uncolored is the key here. Earthworks pre's, millenia pre's, things like that...if EQ is needed I'd use the 8900....stay away from pre's and things like Neve and API as I personally feel they will color the sound too much. JUST MY OPINION...no comments please all you die hard neve guys................


These are my suggestions..hope it helps a little..

[Mike O]

It MIGHT be a generalization to say or imply that current practice is "to use a pick-up"/DI.

Depending on your perspective, you might not regard her as jazz, but Diana Krall's bass stuff is all recorded with mic only by Al Schmidt. Those records are far from two mic efforts, but I recall he did not spot everything. And many purists would not consider the music "jazz" or the the sound on these recordings to be very relevant to what they consider "jazz".

He had a forum for a while and when he first came on line he actually posted diagrahms of musician positioning to take advantage of the room reflections and mic nulls. While he seemed to defer to musicians, he seemed to prefer "all in one room, self balancing approach". Unfortunately I did not save it and he later took these drawings down and would not ever answer questions about them later. Even the forum is gone now - too bad.

But Al works in a VERY large "exceptional" rooms and has more than a little experience and great ears.

But as HenryR suggested, I see little harm (and quite a bit of safety) in using a pickup/DI. Hopefully it will not have to be used (my preference).

[djui5]

Originally posted by Mike O
He had a forum for a while and .

He still does...it's at artistpro.net. Maybe you could ask him personally about what to use. He's a genius...
Joe Chiccarelli and Bill Gibson also have threads there...

http://www.artistpro.net/modules.php...BB2&file=index

[Ted Nightshade]

Just lurking... fascinating to watch the fur fly, and amazing to think of all the collective experience of those (others) present...

[Mike O]

Originally posted by djui5
He still does...it's at artistpro.net. Maybe you could ask him personally about what to use. He's a genius...
Joe Chiccarelli and Bill Gibson also have threads there...

http://www.artistpro.net/modules.php...BB2&file=index

djui5 - Thanks for the link. I used to go there every once in a while, but my link quit working so I assumed they were gone. Really glad to see they just updated the site.

Al and Joe are very informative.

[djui5]

Mike,
Sure thing..

Mike (Lawson) changed the whole site around and is using a new php prog. He also changed a lot of the site to .net while some of it still remains at .com. I like the new site...it's great. He did an excellent job. Only thing I dont' like is that the sourcebook is no longer accessable for free online, but that's nothing to complain about.

[echorec]

Hi guys,

The session was yesterday and today.

I had a great time and both me and the boys were very happy with the results (at least in the studio monitors - let´s hope it sounds good at home too).

Thanks for all the replies!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by echorec
Hi guys,

The session was yesterday and today.

I had a great time and both me and the boys were very happy with the results (at least in the studio monitors - let´s hope it sounds good at home too).

Thanks for all the replies!

So what did you do?! Let us hear about it.

[echorec]

The drums and piano were in the main (rather dry) room. The bass was in the "marble" (ambient) room just outside the main room with the door wide open.

7 mics were used:

Kick: U47 fet --> Neve 1066
Overheads: 2 x KM64 --> Neve 1066
Extra tom mic (on a few songs): SM57 (!) ---> Neve 1066
Bass: U47 tube ---> SSL
Bösendorfer: 2 x U87 ---> SSL

Recorded to Ampex 499 1/4" on a lovely Studer 820

No compression and minimal EQ were used

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by echorec
The drums and piano were in the main (rather dry) room. The bass was in the "marble" (ambient) room just outside the main room with the door wide open.

7 mics were used:

Kick: U47 fet --> Neve 1066
Overheads: 2 x KM64 --> Neve 1066
Extra tom mic (on a few songs): SM57 (!) ---> Neve 1066
Bass: U47 tube ---> SSL
Bösendorfer: 2 x U87 ---> SSL

Recorded to Ampex 499 1/4" on a lovely Studer 820

No compression and minimal EQ were used

How did you mix the stuff together on the way to tape? Any exciting "chase scenes" on the faders?

[echorec]

I set up a basic sound, did a 30-60 sec "soundcheck" before each new song and made small adjustments during the takes if needed.

[Killahurts]

Hey echorec,

Sounds like a fun session. You used some really nice gear, I'd be interested in hearing how it turned out. Maybe you could use the new MP3 upload area?

One question, how did the bass player end up feeling about being separated from the other Cats? I mean, you said there was an open door, but still...

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say he just told you it wasn't nothin but a thing and put on his cans and played great.

I love Jazz musicians. The really good ones don't care about anything but playing the music.

[echorec]

Hi,

The bass player was really close to the (open) door (and the other cats) and I don´t think he felt separated at all. The bass sounded much better in the room with a little ambience. He was maybe 8 feet away from the drummer so they were still close.

I can´t upload anything without asking the band first, I´ll see what I can do.

I love jazz musicians too. These were excellent performers.