which Schoeps capsule for acoustic guitar

[musicsound-2]

I want to buy a high end pair of small condensers to improve my A/B recording of acoustic guitar. I did some research and ended up with the idea of buying some Schoeps CMC6 (maybe xt). Also I was considering Eartworks and Gefell, but Schoeps really got the best reviews so I am focussing on Schoeps now. Of course lateron I will also add some ribbons.

Can anybody who went already thru the same decision process can give me a recommendation if I shall start with a MK4, MK41 or MK21 capsule for A/B recording of an acoustic guitar ? My room is ok but not great.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by musicsound-2

My room is ok but not great.

I'd say MK4 then (cardioid). It will sound very much like the guitar itself. If the room was better, then the MK21 or MK2 would be nice, but you don't want omnidirectional picking up bad sound IMO. MK41 hyper is better for live or studio situations (like a live jazz group in a single room) where you need more extreme isolation (just my 2 cents, I'm sure not everyone agrees).

[mike_mccue]

I enjoy my MK41s for guitars. I don't have any other capsules.

mike

[musicsound-2]

Originally Posted by mike_mccue

I enjoy my MK41s for guitars. I don't have any other capsules.

mike

Mike, did you go thru any decision process - even compared any other capsule or mic - or did you bought the MK41 simply on recommendation ?

[klaukholm]

I would stay away from the xt body.
Go with either the CMC5 or 6.

[mosrite]

I love the MK21 capsules but have used them on an acoustic guitar in a fairly poor room and was slightly disappointed. I also vote MK4 for your situation.

[mike_mccue]

I did have a first hand recomendation from a local colleague whom owns the omni, cardiod, and the MK41 hyper cardiod versions. He told me he found the MK41s the most frequently used.... but not just for guitar.

There's nothing WRONG with the MK41 hyper cardiod that you might associate with the difference in omnis and cardiods... specifically you are not going to sacrifice good sounding off axis frequency response by employing a Schoeps. The Schoeps cardiods sound very natural.

So it's really about if you WANT to capture more room sound you may want the wider spread, but it's my impression that when I use a Schoeps cardiod I don't feel like I'm coloring the edges.

My *road map* was to start with the MK41s. I've owned and used them for about 6 years.

best,
mike

[mosrite]

The MK4's are arguably more versatile than the MK41's if you were wanting to record more than just your acoustic guitar. This added versatility is the result of the MK41's LF rolloff that makes them less suitable for certain sources than the MK4's.

[ISedlacek]

I tried MK41 and did not like them at all. Maybe good shotguns for speech, but for instruments they sounded a bit congested and tensed to me. Lacking the natural relaxed feeling. Recently I used a pair of MK21 on a pop acoustic guitar with great success

[musicsound-2]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I would stay away from the xt body.
Go with either the CMC5 or 6.

that´s the first time I was heard this. Can you please explain WHY ?
What´s wrong with the xt ? I have thought they are even better

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by musicsound-2

What´s wrong with the xt ? I have thought they are even better

Why should they be better?

My guess is that they were added to the line as some people believe that super-high frequencys can be heard somehow. The rest of us does not believe this.

Gunnar

[NathanEldred]

The XT body is definitely brighter (not JUST extended) than the standard body. So you could go with that, but the MK4 capsule will no longer be 'flat'. But at least there are options.

[Plush]

Mk4
or
MK4V (a little treble boost for acoustic gtr.)

Both good, both universal cardioids.

I'm buying CMC5 because there is less phase shift than CMC6. Avoid the xt as it is unnecessary and has extra circuitry.

You can't go wrong with a fantastic neutral mic for acoustic music.

[liuto]

I think the MK4 is perfect to start with. If you have the feeling you need a bit dryer sound, you can add an MK41 later, if you need more room, buy an MK21 or MK2(S/H).

regards
Hermann

[Melodioso]

Just curious,

Why would you recommend the MK2 S or H and not the flat MK2? If the goal is to record an ac guitar with A/B omnis in a room, the distance between source->mic doesn't require a boost in the high-end. Wasn't the S and H specifically made for recording in a natural space, at a significant distance from the source?

[liuto]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Just curious,

Why would you recommend the MK2 S or H and not the flat MK2? If the goal is to record an ac guitar with A/B omnis in a room, the distance between source->mic doesn't require a boost in the high-end. Wasn't the S and H specifically made for recording in a natural space, at a significant distance from the source?

I actually ment all three versions of MK2. I own a pair of MK2S and never had the feeling that they sounded sharp at distances of about 50cm. I personally tend to see the MK2S as the most universal capsule. You can always take away a bit HF, which I feel better with than adding HF. You can listen to some samples recorded with MK2S at a distance of about 50cm without EQ here:

Hermann Platzer. Wien

If you are exclusively recording in the near field, then maybe the MK2 would be the way to go. But maybe of course you might find an MK2H/S is better for your needs. I think it is very interesting that Schoeps makes a special version of the MK21 called MK21H with a rise of 4dB at 7kHz where they write in the specifications:

This microphone type is an outgrowth of our field experience with the MK 21. It embodies suggestions made by various pop musicians who wished certain instruments (such as percussion, acoustic guitar and vocals) to be reproduced with a touch of additional brightness, while maintaining the essential uniformity of response to sound originating anywhere in the microphone's front hemisphere.

The frequency response of the MK 21H/ CCM 21H rises at high frequencies, reaching +4 dB at 7 kHz. Unlike most other condenser microphones, it does not then roll off, but “stays up” even at very high frequencies.

So you can also see the different responses just as different EQ built into the microphones. It will mainly be a matter of taste, which version you like best. In the end you should try for yourself.

Regards
Hermann

[Melodioso]

Thanks for your explanation. I asked because some fine omnis such as the DPA 4006 TL also have the small high-end boost option (with the change of grid), while others such as the Josephson c617 (mk221) are flat. Personally, I have a pair of flat MK2, and use them "universally" from close miking to main pair duty. In this case, I use EQ very lightly if ever, and find that mixing in spot mics brings out a nice balance. But I have to admit I never heard a direct comparison between the H, S and flat versions. Just saw the graphs...

[liuto]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Personally, I have a pair of flat MK2, and use them "universally" from close miking to main pair duty. In this case, I use EQ very lightly if ever, and find that mixing in spot mics brings out a nice balance.

That is exactly what Jörg Wuttke of Schoeps is talking about in his collected essays "Mikrofonaufsätze" (chapter 7, downloadable at schoeps.de):

Der Klang diese beiden Wandler könnte daher ohne großen Nachteil durch einen guten Equalizer in den des jeweils anderen überführt werden.

Translation: The sound of both transducers (ed. liuto: he is talking about diffuse/free field equalized capsules) could therefore be transformed without big loss from one into the other with the help of a good equalizer .

regards
Hermann

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

I have a pair of flat MK2, and use them "universally" from close miking to main pair duty. In this case, I use EQ very lightly if ever, and find that mixing in spot mics brings out a nice balance. But I have to admit I never heard a direct comparison between the H, S and flat versions. Just saw the graphs...

The same here with MK2. I had MK2H here (before MK2) and it sounded too bright to me for my use ...

[Eganmedia]

I would start with a matched pair of MK4 capsules. They nearly always get me the acoustic guitar sound I'm after. They also nealy always get me the acoustic piano sound I'm after. And the drum overhead sound I'm after. The next capsule I'd get (and they come up on ebay from time-to-time well below their new list price) would be a single MK6. That capsule is so versatle I can't get over it. Then I'd get a pair of MK41s, and then a pair of MK2s and then another MK6. Then I'd be broke.

[massimo]

I have had a pair of MK21H (wide cardioid) capsules for 15 years now.
It all a matter of taste, but to my ears that rise at high frequencies is tailored very well and is for some reason extremely musical also with close miking (stringed instruments) of purely acoustic music. In other words, it is not something sounding "artificial" at all. Just a matter of taste, like with equalization in general.

Best regards
Massimo

[musicsound-2]

Originally Posted by massimo

I have had a pair of MK21H (wide cardioid) capsules for 15 years now.
It all a matter of taste, but to my ears that rise at high frequencies is tailored very well and is for some reason extremely musical also with close miking (stringed instruments) of purely acoustic music. In other words, it is not something sounding "artificial" at all. Just a matter of taste, like with equalization in general.

Best regards
Massimo

The MK21 seems to be very interesting for acoustic guitar since it is often desribed as "warm sound" Can you confirm that ? Did you ever - during the 15 years - compared it personally with a MK4 cardioid ?

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by musicsound-2

The MK21 seems to be very interesting for acoustic guitar since it is often desribed as "warm sound" Can you confirm that ? Did you ever - during the 15 years - compared it personally with a MK4 cardioid ?

In general, I've found the MK21 to be a bit brighter than the MK4...but it's not an apples to apples comparison. The room makes a bigger difference with the MK21 since it's sub cardioid, and the bass response of the MK4 will increase or decrease depending on distance from the source (it's not a heavy proximity, but it's still there regardless. Either way though you can't lose.

[massimo]

Now I also own the MK4 cardioid capsule. I have often compared the two directly.
They are both very good. My MK21H, being the "H" version, is brighter than the cardioid, and the latter has a more "focused sound", due to less ambience being picked up. The MK4 is actually "warmer", of course. What I can say is, again, the high freq rise in the "H" is very musical, and will work better fore some sources - at least to my ears, while the other will work better for other sources. Both very natural, the MK21H a little bit on the hyperrealistic side. Which is fine sometimes.

best regards
Massimo

[liuto]

I was very astonished when I first used an MK21 pair beside the MK4. I was certainly prejudiced by those "warm sound" statements on the Schoeps page. My impression is that it is actually a bit brighter than an MK4, a fact that can also be seen in the graphs. Only the additional room sound makes it sounding a bit "rounder" in the end.

Regards
Hermann

[musicsound-2]

Originally Posted by liuto

I was very astonished when I first used an MK21 pair beside the MK4. I was certainly prejudiced by those "warm sound" statements on the Schoeps page. My impression is that it is actually a bit brighter than an MK4, a fact that can also be seen in the graphs. Only the additional room sound makes it sounding a bit "rounder" in the end.

Regards
Hermann

Hermann,

do you finaly recommend MK4, MK21 or MK21H as first capsule for tracking acoustic guitar

[liuto]

I'd personally go for an MK4 first, I find it the most versatile and unproblematic (room sound) to start with.
regards
Hermann

[madriaan]

Not to hijack this thread, but since we're on the topic of schoeps capsules... Has anyone tried MK4 (XY), or MK2 (spaced omni) on choir in medium/large size auditoriums? If so any preferences? Seems to me like the MK4's might be a bit more useful if you're trying to avoid noise from the audience?

Thanks!!

M.