Jazz & Jazz/Fusion Mixing or Recording Tips

jje · 14th July 2007, 02:51 PM

I've noticed that this forum mostly has tips on getting guitars heavier, making vocals stand out, making drums punch through the mix and is very rock and pop oriented.

I just thought it would be good to have a thread where we share jazz and fusion mixing and tracking tips like levels, plug in usage, eq'ing and mic'ing, etc.

I'll start off (althought this may seem rudimentary) by saying that when tracking upright, I like to use at least two mic's - one about six inches away from the TREBLE side soundhole and one about a foot out in front of the bass pointing at the space between the bridge and fingerboard. If possible, a third mic a few inches from the fingerboard is cool to mix in to get some nice playing noise.

Jim Williams · 14th July 2007, 04:42 PM

Not necessary. A great mic with good low end and a flat, but open top end works great for getting all the depth and string slap noise. If anything, there is too much of that for most folks, this is why you rarely ever hear a upright on a recording sounding like the real thing. It's a tighter bottom end because you avoid comb filtering from 2 or more mics interacting. Although popular with the rocker's electric bass recording, the upright requires a more purest approach if you want to retain the qualities of that instrument.

I'm a guitar player, but it's about time the subject was changed, I know how to record guitar already after 40 years of doing this.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Tony Shepperd · 14th July 2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not necessary. A great mic with good low end and a flat, but open top end works great for getting all the depth and string slap noise. If anything, there is too much of that for most folks, this is why you rarely ever hear a upright on a recording sounding like the real thing. It's a tighter bottom end because you avoid comb filtering from 2 or more mics interacting.

I'm with Jim on this.
One mic, strategically placed makes an awesome recording.

davedarling · 14th July 2007, 05:24 PM

I agree that one well chosen, and placed mic can be lovely. Particularly on a smaller recording like a jazz trio, or small bluegrass band. That being said, I use 2 mics
pretty much all the time.
I like a good ribbon a foot out front to take a snapshot of the instument, and a little of the space it's in, and a large di condenser fairly close, and to one side of the bridge
to get a little more present sound. This is the norm for my big band, and swing records.
On rockabilly records I'll add that fretboard mic for the crazy over exaggerated
slap. And sometimes a little amp for growl.
Different situations are going to require different mic set ups in my opinion.

more than one way to skin a bass.

best Dave Darling

jje · 14th July 2007, 05:42 PM

Good comments, but let's expand. The thread wasn't necessarily about bass, per se, but more along the lines of just overall tips and tricks for recording and mixing jazz. I see lots of threads here about rock, metal, and pop, but so few about jazz.

Jim Williams · 14th July 2007, 06:05 PM

I break it down to two major groups, the traditional jazz and the so called "smooth jazz" or as my friend Kim Stone of the Rippingtons calls it, "happy jazz".

Traditional jazz requires a more purist, almost documentarian approach, not much different than classical music.

The happy jazz is more of a typical pop session with overdubs, individually miced drums and instruments, etc. Lot's of pro tools and ITB mixing there as some of these guys do their own productions, like Russ Freeman and Greg Karukas.

A perfect example would be an acoustic guitarist that mics his acoustic guitar and then a Peter White or Craig Chiquito "unplugged, butt plugged" approach.

Traditional jazz drum micing would be two overheads and a kick mic, the smooth jazz session would have the kit covered like on a pop date.

Jim Wiiliams
Audio Upgrades

**Remoteness** · 14th July 2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jje

I've noticed that this forum mostly has tips on getting guitars heavier, making vocals stand out, making drums punch through the mix and is very rock and pop oriented.

I just thought it would be good to have a thread where we share jazz and fusion mixing and tracking tips like levels, plug in usage, eq'ing and mic'ing, etc.

I'll start off (althought this may seem rudimentary) by saying that when tracking upright, I like to use at least two mic's - one about six inches away from the TREBLE side soundhole and one about a foot out in front of the bass pointing at the space between the bridge and fingerboard. If possible, a third mic a few inches from the fingerboard is cool to mix in to get some nice playing noise.

I've mored this thread to the "Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording" since we mainly discuss Jazz, Classical, Choir, Acoustic Music environments & beyond.

We also chat about Live Performance, Mobile & Location Production & Broadcasting.

I believe you will get more mileage in this forum.

zaczac · 15th July 2007, 04:48 AM

Definitely have a bit of a search through the remote forums (if you haven't already) JJE, there are plenty of good jazz topics (and some good ones on bass).

On the bass topic, I was recording a trio yesterday. I already had an RE20 on the bass, but thought I'd try the SDC in the bridge trick. My only SDC is an NT3 which I've always hated, but it worked so well in the bridge I used it instead of the RE20.

Jim Williams · 15th July 2007, 04:00 PM

Not suprising at all. I used the prototypes of the Rode NT-2 ( I designed the electronics on those) to record the upright bass for the late Mel Torme' trio, quite a good jazz band there. Yes, I miss Mel, I caught his son James a couple of weeks ago, the nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

leddy · 16th July 2007, 02:22 AM

Here's a real short clip of my trio I just recorded. I used an ORTF pair in front (Beyer MC930) with a small omni suspended in the bridge of the bass (Niant MSH-1). No other mics were used. It was a live gig in a bad room, so the mics are pretty close, almost in between the piano and the drums. Bass is in the middle.

zaczac · 16th July 2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not suprising at all. I used the prototypes of the Rode NT-2 ( I designed the electronics on those) to record the upright bass for the late Mel Torme' trio, quite a good jazz band there. Yes, I miss Mel, I caught his son James a couple of weeks ago, the nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

...did I say hated...

. I'm actually quite fond of my old NT2 just never found much use for the NT3 til now. Seems like a good example of just needing to find the right application for a mic.

stevep · 16th July 2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not suprising at all. I used the prototypes of the Rode NT-2 ( I designed the electronics on those) to record the upright bass for the late Mel Torme' trio, quite a good jazz band there. Yes, I miss Mel, I caught his son James a couple of weeks ago, the nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Works great on mandolin to

thanks jim !

For the uprite,.. the last session i did i used a u87 on the bottom F hole and a 414 on top by the neck

I think i compressed the bottom while tracking and i know i used the MC77 on the top mic during the mix and cut most of the lows out of that track and used the bottom mic for the subs

Oh and for Jazz, bluegrass im defiantly going to tape

rainy-taxi · 16th July 2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leddy

Here's a real short clip of my trio I just recorded. I used an ORTF pair in front (Beyer MC930) with a small omni suspended in the bridge of the bass (Niant MSH-1). No other mics were used. It was a live gig in a bad room, so the mics are pretty close, almost in between the piano and the drums. Bass is in the middle.

sounds very good ! Though I would mix the piano more in the middle instead of totally left panned.

leddy · 16th July 2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

sounds very good ! Though I would mix the piano more in the middle instead of totally left panned.

Thanks. Yeah there's a little balance problem. Plenty of drums make it to both mics but the piano is a little one-sided. That was a pretty rough mix. I recorded it Saturday night. It will get better.

ajfarber · 16th July 2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leddy

Here's a real short clip of my trio I just recorded. I used an ORTF pair in front (Beyer MC930) with a small omni suspended in the bridge of the bass (Niant MSH-1). No other mics were used. It was a live gig in a bad room, so the mics are pretty close, almost in between the piano and the drums. Bass is in the middle.

Sounds like the real deal to me!

-AF

Jim Williams · 16th July 2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaczac

...did I say hated...

. I'm actually quite fond of my old NT2 just never found much use for the NT3 til now. Seems like a good example of just needing to find the right application for a mic.

It's the piano mic of choice for Greg Karukas, you can hear them on most of his releases, it works pretty good on a Yamaha C2. I used them once on a live big band date at Catalina's in Hollywood and they caused big problems. The stage was small and I also used another NT-2 on on the upright as I has such great results at the Ambassador auditorium with Mel Torme'. Mel's band was spread out a bit and the Ambassador has some of the finest acoustics on the west coast. I had cymbal leakage all over the piano and bass at Catalina's. Next time, it's 414B's. Or even an RE-20 on the bass.

Sometimes it's not a choice of the best mic for the job but the best mic for the venue.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

zaczac · 17th July 2007, 03:14 PM

Yeah I've learnt that lesson the hard way. M160's M88's RE20 etc have all pretty much taken over from my old LDC mic choices. Still hard to go past the NTK's on piano though.

jje · 17th July 2007, 07:57 PM

So here's where my thread went.

Oddly enough I didn't even know this forum existed. I thought it was just for live music recording.

Thanks for the tips and I'll search this forum for some more stuff. Sorry if I was redundant in starting this thread.

**Remoteness** · 17th July 2007, 08:58 PM

Hey, we're happy that you found us...

Jazz music lives at the "Remote Possibilities..." forum.

Welcome aboard the acoustic music (and such) train!

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14th July 2007, 02:51 PM	#1
jje Gear nut Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 98	Jazz & Jazz/Fusion Mixing or Recording Tips I've noticed that this forum mostly has tips on getting guitars heavier, making vocals stand out, making drums punch through the mix and is very rock and pop oriented. I just thought it would be good to have a thread where we share jazz and fusion mixing and tracking tips like levels, plug in usage, eq'ing and mic'ing, etc. I'll start off (althought this may seem rudimentary) by saying that when tracking upright, I like to use at least two mic's - one about six inches away from the TREBLE side soundhole and one about a foot out in front of the bass pointing at the space between the bridge and fingerboard. If possible, a third mic a few inches from the fingerboard is cool to mix in to get some nice playing noise.

17th July 2007, 08:58 PM	#19
Remoteness Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 4,905	Hey, we're happy that you found us... Jazz music lives at the "Remote Possibilities..." forum. Welcome aboard the acoustic music (and such) train! __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network Remoteness on Myspace

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14th July 2007, 04:42 PM	#2
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 4,317	Not necessary. A great mic with good low end and a flat, but open top end works great for getting all the depth and string slap noise. If anything, there is too much of that for most folks, this is why you rarely ever hear a upright on a recording sounding like the real thing. It's a tighter bottom end because you avoid comb filtering from 2 or more mics interacting. Although popular with the rocker's electric bass recording, the upright requires a more purest approach if you want to retain the qualities of that instrument. I'm a guitar player, but it's about time the subject was changed, I know how to record guitar already after 40 years of doing this. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades

14th July 2007, 05:24 PM	#4
davedarling Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: west coast yo Posts: 179	I agree that one well chosen, and placed mic can be lovely. Particularly on a smaller recording like a jazz trio, or small bluegrass band. That being said, I use 2 mics pretty much all the time. I like a good ribbon a foot out front to take a snapshot of the instument, and a little of the space it's in, and a large di condenser fairly close, and to one side of the bridge to get a little more present sound. This is the norm for my big band, and swing records. On rockabilly records I'll add that fretboard mic for the crazy over exaggerated slap. And sometimes a little amp for growl. Different situations are going to require different mic set ups in my opinion. more than one way to skin a bass. best Dave Darling

14th July 2007, 05:42 PM	#5
jje Gear nut Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 98	Good comments, but let's expand. The thread wasn't necessarily about bass, per se, but more along the lines of just overall tips and tricks for recording and mixing jazz. I see lots of threads here about rock, metal, and pop, but so few about jazz.

14th July 2007, 06:05 PM	#6
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 4,317	I break it down to two major groups, the traditional jazz and the so called "smooth jazz" or as my friend Kim Stone of the Rippingtons calls it, "happy jazz". Traditional jazz requires a more purist, almost documentarian approach, not much different than classical music. The happy jazz is more of a typical pop session with overdubs, individually miced drums and instruments, etc. Lot's of pro tools and ITB mixing there as some of these guys do their own productions, like Russ Freeman and Greg Karukas. A perfect example would be an acoustic guitarist that mics his acoustic guitar and then a Peter White or Craig Chiquito "unplugged, butt plugged" approach. Traditional jazz drum micing would be two overheads and a kick mic, the smooth jazz session would have the kit covered like on a pop date. Jim Wiiliams Audio Upgrades

15th July 2007, 04:48 AM	#8
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	Definitely have a bit of a search through the remote forums (if you haven't already) JJE, there are plenty of good jazz topics (and some good ones on bass). On the bass topic, I was recording a trio yesterday. I already had an RE20 on the bass, but thought I'd try the SDC in the bridge trick. My only SDC is an NT3 which I've always hated, but it worked so well in the bridge I used it instead of the RE20.

15th July 2007, 04:00 PM	#9
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 4,317	Not suprising at all. I used the prototypes of the Rode NT-2 ( I designed the electronics on those) to record the upright bass for the late Mel Torme' trio, quite a good jazz band there. Yes, I miss Mel, I caught his son James a couple of weeks ago, the nut doesn't fall far from the tree. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades

17th July 2007, 03:14 PM	#17
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	Yeah I've learnt that lesson the hard way. M160's M88's RE20 etc have all pretty much taken over from my old LDC mic choices. Still hard to go past the NTK's on piano though.

17th July 2007, 07:57 PM	#18
jje Gear nut Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 98	So here's where my thread went. Oddly enough I didn't even know this forum existed. I thought it was just for live music recording. Thanks for the tips and I'll search this forum for some more stuff. Sorry if I was redundant in starting this thread.