Looking for some micing/general advice for chamber music recording

[Manozi]

Hey all!

First of all, I am not sure if this is the right forum for this post, so if this needs to be somewhere else, please let me know! :)

I am doing a number of recordings for the International Chamber Music Festival in Stavanger, Norway (www.ICMF.no ) and I wanted to get some opinions on how I can best use the equipment available to me to get a professional recording.

I am a student at the University Of Stavanger's 'Music Production and Recording' program and we are going to be using the school's equipment since this is a community project and we're doing it out of support for the festival - not as a paid job.

This is the list of equipment that the school is going to provide to us for the recording:

-Neumann M-149 tube microphone - x2

-Shure KSM 44 microphone - x4

-AKG C-414 microphone - x2

-Audio Technica AT4033 microphone - x2

-Neumann KM140 condenser microphone - x3

-Microphone clips for Neumann KM140s - x3

-Black telescope microphone stands - x4

-Standard boom microphone stands (tall) - x9

-AKG ¼ - inch jack headphones - x1

-Electricity power strips (long) - x2

-Optical (LightPipe) cables - x2

-SPDIF cable - x1

-Word Clock cable - x1

-6-space rack cases - x2

-Microphone cables (XLRs)

-Digi 002 ProTools recording interface (Rackmount type - from LKS studio)

-Digi 002 ProTools recording interface (Factory type - from 208 studio)

-Millennia HV-3D microphone pre-amp

-RME FireFace microphone pre-amp

-Rosendahl Digital Audio Clock

-iMac computer





We will be dealing with different recording settings, including the

Stavanger Cathedral - http://www.stavangerweb.com/touristinfo/domkirken.htm


Utstein Kloster Monastery -
http://www.utstein-kloster.no/bilder/UTSTEIN7.jpg

and

LKS - A concert hall at the UiS's music campus
http://www.machinecalledman.com/Manol/LKS.jpg

We can have one general mic setup for all the performances of the concerts (one concert consists of a number of performances, that differ in instruments involved, stage positioning etc) and we won't get a chance to change around setups to match each performance.

I am thinking of using the Neumann M-149 tubes as a main spaced stereo pair, and using the other available mics, as spots, as necesssary.

However given the multitude of stage setups and the different performers/instruments involved I wanted to inquire as to what would be a good 'general' mic setup that would be a good compromise for all the performances.

I was also wondering, if it would be a good idea to have a stereo pair on the piano, in the performances that include it, or just rely on the main pair for pickup. I was thinking that using the stereo pair only might give a better ballance of the piano with the other instruments/voices involved, and might help it blend in better. A dedicated piano pair might make it stand out too much and lose the effect of all instruments being in the same physical space (especially in the more reverberant halls such as the monastery and the cathedral).

Since me and my colleague would have to be at two different concerts in two different places at the same time, on a number of days, we are using twos separate recording setups, both involving a ProTools LE 7.0 ready computer and a Digi002.

One setup will go thru the RME FireFace preamp, which in combination with the Digi can handle 8 mics (including 48v), and the other will go thru a Millennia HV-3D preamp, which in combination w/ the Digi, will again allow for 8 mic inputs.

We cannot afford more than 8-mics each, for each recording, but since the stage setups are going to be relatively small, I believe that would be more than enough.

We are dealing with the 'normal' chamber music instruments and performers - namely, voice (solo and choir), piano, flute, harp, and various string instruments, played in combination with a piano, solo, or in a quartet setting.

I would appreciate any suggestions related to handling these sorts of sessions, but I am mostly looking for advice on micing setups, given the challenges of recording spaces, and changing stage setups.

Thanks very much in advance, and I look forward to everyone's replies!


Cheers,

Manol

[d_fu]

This is where you want to go...
Have you got any previous experience with acoustic recording?

Daniel

[Manozi]

Hey Daniel!

Thanks for the link - I shall relocate the thread to the appropriate forum

And yes, I have a little experience in acoustic recording, that I acquired during my study period in Norway. Actually did recordings in two of the venues that I mentioned - the monastery and the school's hall (mostly this hall).

I mostly used an A-B stereo pair on high stands (either the Shure KM44s or the M-149s) and added spots as needed (or where possible, since the mic stands on stage were often an issue w/ administration etc.)


Cheers :)

-M

[pkautzsch]

As a rule of thumb, one can say that if you start spot-miking one instrument, you'll soon be forced to spot-mike all the others too. When there are different ensembles without the time to adjust spots, I'd rather leave them out and do some kind of flexible main pair setup. With your mic choice, I'd probably (depending on the room, of course, but that's what we all know) go for M-149 spaced pair PLUS an MS pair of C414 and, say, KM-140. Maybe even add a widely angled XY pair of the other two KM-140s right in the middle of the stage, and then mix to taste while retaining ONE of the pairs the MAIN pair throughout the whole concert to keep the space the same.
Do you have access to KM-130 or KM-183 or similar? I'm missing pressure transducers in your collection.

Can you tell me why I suggest what I suggest?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Manozi

I am doing a number of recordings for the International Chamber Music Festival in Stavanger, Norway (www.ICMF.no )

Wow, nice list of performances... Do you get to record Midori also? I think I'd pay to be able to do some of the recordings..
Would really like to do some string quartet recordings etc. The chamber music stuff I do is mostly of the baroque variety.

We can have one general mic setup for all the performances of the concerts (one concert consists of a number of performances, that differ in instruments involved, stage positioning etc) and we won't get a chance to change around setups to match each performance.

Why is that so...? If the organizers want good recordings, why can't someone quickly move a couple of mics as the performers change seats?

Alternatively, try a setup (ORTF or so) close up to where the music is (can you fly mics?) and a pair further back or so...
Maybe you can also figure out a setup that will accomodate all setups within one concert and just leave it as it is... This would require unobtrusive placement and small mic stands, though.

I was also wondering, if it would be a good idea to have a stereo pair on the piano, in the performances that include it, or just rely on the main pair for pickup.

I'd probably spot the piano in mono, just to have it, if necessary.

Can you get hold of more SDCs (mainly for optical reasons)?

Daniel

[Manozi]

Hey guys!

Thanks for the posts!

pkautzsch - Unfortunately I don't have access to any pressure transducers. It would be nice, but this list is pretty much the best that the school has to offer.

And yes, that was my thinking w/ the spots also. It might be tricky trying to deal with those given the setting. I might just end up with a pair or a single capacitor on the piano - to use if needed.

I will keep your suggestions in mind as far as the main pair configurations - hopefully I will have enough time to experimet a bit during sound check/rehearsals (tho it doesn't seem like it).

Daniel - I am not really sure about the 'moving mics around' deal. I MIGHT be able to do that, but I would have to see the stage setups first, know how much time there would be for changeover, and talk to the organizers in person (I am currently out of Norway - getting there August 3rd).

That would be the best option - but if not, I will have to find a flexible main setup.

I don't think we will be able to fly mics, so that is out of the question.
We'll have to go w/ stands. It doesn't help that most of the XLR cables the school has at their disposal are bright green or blue

And yes, I believe we are recording Midori as well :)

Could you please clarify for my ignorant self - what do you mean by SDCs?


Thanks a bunch!

-M

[klaukholm]

I agree with Daniel on the SDC omnis.

This is a good festival you are doing.
Remember that the main purpose of the festival is the concerts. Your recordings are for archival use, am I correct?

You need to be inconspicuous.
In a perfect world you would have active cables or active stands for the 140 capsules and a pair of either
schoeps cmc series omnis or wide cardioids with actice stands
Schoeps ccm omnis or wide cardioids
The compact DPA series omnis
or the Neumann km130 with an active stand

I would do a very inconspicuous setup with an ORTF in the middle and omni flanks.

I would not spot anyone, it is very distracting to have spots move around in such level performances and it should not be necessary.
The m149 are far to big for live concerts.

If none of these are available I would simply use the MK140's in ORTF and leave it at that. Try to hang them or use a very slim, but stable stand.

Focus on getting a good placement and off you go.
The Millennia pre is perfect for the job. The only thing missing is a good AD converter.

If I were you I would invest in a pair of DPA/Schoeps/Sennheiser/neumann SDC omnis or wide cardioids. They will serve you well for the resot of your carreer and you get to start learning them in this great learning environment you will be in this summer. Use this chance to perfect your mic technique for chambermusic, you may never record such great players again.


Lykke till med innspillingene
vennlige hilsener fra Köbenhavn
Kjetil

[klaukholm]

SDC's are small diaphragm condensers
examples of good such SDC omni mics are:
Neumann:
M150, MK130
Schoeps:
CMC5 (alternatively CMC6 or M222) with capsules MK2h, MK2S
DPA:
4006, 4052
Sennheiser:
MKH20

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I agree with Daniel on the SDC omnis.

My point was mainly SDCs as opposed to LDCs for their sheer size (being inconspicuous and all..). Nothing wrong with the 149s as main pair, I'd say, none of these performances seem to really require the extended bass response of a pressure transducer. And if I were to rely on a single pair in a cathedral, I think I'd use cardioids. In fact, I have recorded a string quartet in a rather reverberant church once, with a pair AKG480/CK61 in some kind of NOS-ish setup, and the performers were very happy (they had worried about too much reverb).

Daniel

[Manozi]

Hi Kjetil!

Thanks so much for your post - it was very useful!

In fact the school does have a pair of Schoeps CMCs and 3 DPA 4006 SDCs.

However I wasn't sure if they would be of any use for me in this situation (hence my asking here ;) so I did not include them in the list.
However I can get hold of them, no problem.

You seem to have experience in doing such recordings - would you recommend I get the Schoeps and DPAs in my arsenal for these recordings and leave the M-149s?

A few questions:

What exactly do you mean by 'active' cables and stands?

Also, you said ORTF in the middle and omni flanks would be a good idea - do you mean a pair of omnis or a single SDC on each side?

And finally, no, the recordings are not simply for archival purposes - they will be released on an official ICMF CD I believe sometime next year.

All the more reason for us to do a good job at this :)


Thanks!

-Manol

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Manozi

In fact the school does have a pair of Schoeps CMCs and 3 DPA 4006 SDCs.
However I wasn't sure if they would be of any use for me in this situation (hence my asking here ;) so I did not include them in the list.

You seem to have experience in doing such recordings - would you recommend I get the Schoeps and DPAs in my arsenal for these recordings and leave the M-149s?

I'm not Kjetil, but I probably would... Are the Schoepses omnis or cardioids?

And finally, no, the recordings are not simply for archival purposes - they will be released on an official ICMF CD I believe sometime next year.

I'll trade you a copy for a copy of the harpsichord recording I did recently...


Daniel

[klaukholm]

Daniel, I was in complete agreement on the M149s. Lovely mics, just big and too visible for this purpose in my opinion.

The cardioids would go in the centre (pm me if you do not know what ORTF is and you can get it in Norwegian)

Two DPA 4006 omnis will be great as far right and far left. (begin with the silver grid, the black one is brighter)
If I have no soundcheck I like the ORTF to be closeish and the Omnis back a bit.
As Daniel said cardioids are good if you can only use two mics.

If the schoeps are mk21 (or ccm21) they are wide carioids and also very useful.
If they are mk4 they are cardioids and will also sound great in ORTF.
Do you have acess to DPA 4011 or 4015?

Here is a link to the active stands

Schoeps rc

You separate the capsule and the body and end up with a very slim practically invisible stand.

Great for TV and live concerts like you are doing here.

Maybe you can place an MS setup on the same stand as the ORTF to get more options.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Daniel, I was in complete agreement on the M149s.

I was not under the impression that you weren't...

Daniel

[klaukholm]

Daniel, sorry if I was unclear.
As a chambermusic concertgoer I just dont like massive mic arrays between me and the performers, I find it distracting.

I am a huge fan of the M149 for many things, and think they would sound remakable in ORTF for this type of ensemble.
The finetuning of the patterns could also be highly useful.

[Manozi]

Daniel + Kjetil - again, many thanks for the useful info - you've been a great help so far!

Kjetil,

The only DPAs that I have access to are the 4006s.

The Schoeps are omnis - not cardioids.

Thanks for the active stands info - I just learned something new - great! :)

Yes, I am aware of what ORTF is - and actually I am not Norwegian myself - I'm American - I just studied in Stavanger for a year :)

But...

If it is not too much of a pain, would any one of you care to explain the MS setup to me, briefly?

I have heard of this before but have never seen it in use/used it myself!


Cheers!

Manol

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Manozi

If it is not too much of a pain, would any one of you care to explain the MS setup to me, briefly?

MS stereo - Google Search

[klaukholm]

Which schoeps omnis are they?

[Manozi]

Kjetil,

The Schoeps are the CMC5 body, but I am not sure which capsules they have on. They are omnis though.

I only have access to the DPA 4006 omnis - unfortunately this is the only DPAs we have - no cards.


Daniel,

Thanks for the link!


-M

[digitalolive]

Having just finished recording the Sarasota Music Festival and the La Musica Festival where our main "go to" mics are the Schoeps Omnis, I would say you've got everything you need! The only time we used a third mic was to get a bit more harpsichord in a chamber orchestra situation. A stereo pair of SDC omnis is my favorite for chamber music.

Good luck and keep us posted how things go. I'd love to come up and help, I love Norway!

Steve Lemke

[Manozi]

Hey Steve!

Thanks so much for replying!

Yet another reassurance that the Schoeps SDC omnis are the mics to use in this case!

Yes, Norway is great - I love it as well - and it will be a great experience doing this recording!

Thanks again to everyone for all the replies - I have a better idea of how to approach this situation now :)


Cheers,

Manol

[klaukholm]

Not all of the schoeps omnis would be good.

The mk2 is not really useful, and neither is the mk3

I would stay with MK2H, MK2S or the omni from the MK6 or MK5 multipattern.

edit:
the mk2 will come across as dull in a reverberant space when used at a distance like a main pair would.
the mk3 is very bright and is most useful at a great distance.

[boojum]

Reading these forums is like auditing a grad seminar. So interesting, informative and helpful. Love it.

Cheers

[mal]

Keep it simple. ...esp if live....if you can fly a stereo pair...schoeps cardiods or wide cardiods..plus omni outriggers...a mono piano spot (b & k or similar) will prob be all you need to fill in if the piano is not enough...Chamber music is all about simplicity and intimacy but with a sense of the room you are in.....

[d_fu]

Another idea for a universal stereo setup would be so-called Straus packets.

It's like an AB with omnis (e.g. 1 meter), but you place a pair of cardiods right next to the omnis. Record separately (4 channels). Mixing the cardioids to the omnis' signal will produce something going towards the characteristics of wide cardioids. Lets you add some focus to the omnis. KM 140s may be just right.

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Now where did you fly that Straus packet, Daniel? ;)
South German Radio do Straus packet main pairs all the time. Usually 4006 + KM140.

[David Rick]

Here's a picture of what I had up last week at a chamber music festival in Iowa. The left pair is a pair of Josephson series 6 hypercardioids (sadly, now out of production). These were used for strings-only ensembles. Right is a pair of Schoeps sub-cardioids. These were the default for any ensemble that included a piano. In past years, this pair would have been a DPA pair, most likely with a Schneider disk baffle but, as you can see, all my DPA's were tied up in that center Trinnov surround array. Not shown is a Hamasaki square ( 4 NT2-A's in figure eight pattern) high up in the rear of the hall.

Preamps were Millennia HV-3, for the most part.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording