Recording a drum line.

[Sid Viscous]

I need to record a drum line to put in a song that we are recording. Any ideas on ways to do that would be greatly appreciated.

[Kiwiburger]

For real? How about putting some mic's around a drumkit and getting your drummer to play ... ?

Are you serious ... how do you expect anyone to answer that? There are so many options it's crazy.

What have you got to work with?

[HevyCavy]

I think he means an actual drum line, such as in the movie.

I'm not sure how to do it myself, though...

[Kiwiburger]

OK - a outdoor marching band sort of thing? Sorry I thought you meant a 'drum line' as in a 'bass line'.

Maybe a Rode NTG-1 with a Dead Cat RØDE Microphones > Products > NTG-1

You could maybe fake it by using an ensemble effect on a single snare drum.

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

You could maybe fake it by using an ensemble effect on a single snare drum.

I don't think there is any way to fake the sound and feel of 15 drummers playing at the same time. Now, how about some ideas?

[the1Hub]

do you plan on doing this in a studio or outside. i would aproach it much like recording a choir. try using a stereo pair to capture the sound of the ensemble.

[Kiwiburger]

Originally Posted by Sid Viscous

I don't think there is any way to fake the sound and feel of 15 drummers playing at the same time. Now, how about some ideas?

You can fake anything if you really want to.

Depending on how important and how exposed this sound must be, you could for example:

1 - process a single drum track with something like CloneEnsemble, or simply pitch shift 15 cloned tracks slightly differently, applying various delays, pitch and/or formant shifts and pan positions. Probably a bit cheesy, but would fool most people.

2 - record 15 drum tracks, retuning the drum each time and shifting the mic around, and switching various mics.

3 - combination of 1 & 2

With a good convolution reverb of outdoor ambiance, this would fool a lot more people.

Otherwise, what mics have you got, or are you looking for mic recommendations? What is your budget?

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

You can fake anything if you really want to.

Depending on how important and how exposed this sound must be, you could for example:

1 - process a single drum track with something like CloneEnsemble, or simply pitch shift 15 cloned tracks slightly differently, applying various delays, pitch and/or formant shifts and pan positions. Probably a bit cheesy, but would fool most people.

2 - record 15 drum tracks, retuning the drum each time and shifting the mic around, and switching various mics.

3 - combination of 1 & 2

With a good convolution reverb of outdoor ambiance, this would fool a lot more people.

Otherwise, what mics have you got, or are you looking for mic recommendations? What is your budget?

I'm looking more for technique ideas. Monitoring, miking and such.

[Kiwiburger]

So what have you actually got to work with - or is that precious information?

If budget is no object - given all 15 drummers a wireless in-ear monitor.
If it's outside you'll probably need a dead cat on your directional stereo mics.

I would probably use my Roland R1, with my Neve Portico 5012 running off a 12V battery. But there are better portable recorders.

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

So what have you actually got to work with - or is that precious information?

Ok, now about a pair pf SM81s and a 828MKII? You could always tell me what you would use as well.

[Kiwiburger]

Beat you to it - see above edit.

My budget wouldn't stretch to wireless monitors, but I would probably buy a bunch of cheap earplugs and wire them together. Or if a small amount of leakage is tolerable, use a ghetto blaster or something that each drummer can hear over the hellacious noise they will be making.

Maybe even a cheap FM transmitter, and they can use as many portable FM radios as they need ... cheap toys but would work.

If you don't have a dead cat you could probably just wrap the mics in a towel or something - wind noise is a problem outdoors. I assume this will be outdoors? I think you will need a reasonable distance - maybe suspend the mics from a wire or a goal post or street light.

Unless you are doing this for a living and need the ultimate marching band recording setup, I think cheap homebrew solutions are fine. I don't have a stereo bar, so I would probably just gaffer tape the SM81's to a piece of wood.

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Beat you to it - see above edit.

My budget wouldn't stretch to wireless monitors, but I would probably buy a bunch of cheap earplugs and wire them together. Or if a small amount of leakage is tolerable, use a ghetto blaster or something that each drummer can hear over the hellacious noise they will be making.

Maybe even a cheap FM transmitter, and they can use as many portable FM radios as they need ... cheap toys but would work.

If you don't have a dead cat you could probably just wrap the mics in a towel or something - wind noise is a problem outdoors. I assume this will be outdoors? I think you will need a reasonable distance - maybe suspend the mics from a wire or a goal post or street light.

Unless you are doing this for a living and need the ultimate marching band recording setup, I think cheap homebrew solutions are fine. I don't have a stereo bar, so I would probably just gaffer tape the SM81's to a piece of wood.

OK...
I have a stereo bar...
and I can kill a cat or at least a possum...

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Sid Viscous

I need to record a drum line to put in a song that we are recording. Any ideas on ways to do that would be greatly appreciated.

I did this on one of my tunes a few years back in Paris. It was all "second line"snare drums so I'm not sure if that's what you're planning. It was myself and two other drummers and rather than sit in a circle, I was placed between the other two (one on my left and one on my right). We were separated by about three to four feet of air between us. The mics were 57's on each snare top and two 87's about eight to ten feet infront, about eight feet high and about six to eight feet apart. We overdubbed two more passes so that we had 9 snare tracks. If I had more drummers available, I would have rethought the "configuation" and most likely would have created a circle (better eye contact) and used either just stereo overheads or a combo of O/H and mics on each drum. For what it's worth, I have also "created" a drum line vibe by myself. Also cool, but kinda lonely with no one to talk to........peace..

[PhatStax Drums]

Good Lord.

Why on earth would the cats in the drum line need in-ear monitors? Are you serious?

A pair of SM81s would be just about perfect.

Put them where they sound good, like what you want, and mic them with two mics (probably use the best signal chain you have, and the SM81 is a very faithful mic, then you can go from there), from where it sounds like what you want.

What the man said, like miking a choir.

I know you might want more specifics on where to put them but I'm not sure if you're going to do this inside or outside but you could work with either as long as the acoustics were decent enough.

Miked inside a good, large studio with plenty of room ambience, using two SM81s, should just about knock your socks off.

Even a gymnasium might work okay, too, for that, if you can work with the mic placement.

[Kiwiburger]

I'm second guessing that this drum line might need to sync with a pop tune. Maybe it can be completely uncoordinated. But the word monitoring was mentioned - and I was trying to extract more information by being a bit ridiculous. OK?

For that matter, I suppose it could be time stretched to fit anyway.

[PhatStax Drums]

Sorry, like a good 21st Century Man, I didn't read slowly enough and missed the monitoring part, sure, if they're overdubbing to something already recorded, sure, they'd need that (or good isolation headphones--- bleed won't be an issue with a drum line unless they're playing strictly on the rims or something (which they won't be)).

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

I'm second guessing that this drum line might need to sync with a pop tune. Maybe it can be completely uncoordinated. But the word monitoring was mentioned - and I was trying to extract more information by being a bit ridiculous. OK?

For that matter, I suppose it could be time stretched to fit anyway.

It would help if they could hear playback of the track. It would make for less work in post.

[PhatStax Drums]

Any headphones should do alright, I really don't think bleed would be an issue because you're recording drums (not violins) and I assume they'll be playing reasonably loudly; the headphones would be drowned out for all practical purposes.

You could get a bunch of Behringer headphone amps (if $$ is an issue) and daisy-chain them and hook up a bunch of headphones.

I wonder if you'll have to buy a bunch of Walkman-type headphones...how about some cheap Walkman-type in-ear ones?

Except really the drummers should be able to hear themselves (of course you can mix them into the monitor mix, and/or they can only use one ear).

Or maybe those jogging-type headphones, the ones with the small drivers that sort of fit perpendicularly in your ear (like the ones Sony makes); should be cheap and they go pretty loud. They're not isolated, but, again....



the critical thing is finding a good sound stage to record them on, if that's what you want. Even a school auditorium if you could convince someone to let you in? Or, you have access to a good large studio room?

[Sid Viscous]

Also, I'll be doing the whole gang. 5 or 6 marching snares, 4 basses, and a full compliment of tonal drums (the most important part).

[Kiwiburger]

Will they be marching, or stationary? Indoors or outdoors? Video or not?

I was thinking marching, outdoors with video would be the most difficult.

You can buy $2 fm radios that could be worn inconspicuously by each player, and FM transmitters that plug into an iPod are cheap. They will be able to hear themselves through any lightweight headphones or earpieces - so you could march them up and down the street if you wanted.

It could be cool to do it in a really reflective outdoor venue, and get practically dummy-head stereo picture of it from some high place.

Of course I have no idea of what sound you are going for.

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Will they be marching, or stationary? Indoors or outdoors? Video or not?

I was thinking marching, outdoors with video would be the most difficult.

You can buy $2 fm radios that could be worn inconspicuously by each player, and FM transmitters that plug into an iPod are cheap. They will be able to hear themselves through any lightweight headphones or earpieces - so you could march them up and down the street if you wanted.

It could be cool to do it in a really reflective outdoor venue, and get practically dummy-head stereo picture of it from some high place.

Stationary, not sure about where at this point, we'll fake it for video if we need it for later.

Of course I have no idea of what sound you are going for

That makes two of us.

[PhatStax Drums]

Here's something interesting regarding marching bands (although I'm aware that you said your band will be stationary); this concerns a bagpipe band (as I recall); from Recording The Beatles ; EMI/Abbey Road Studio One is HUGE; once, a bagpipe band made a recording there, and they found that they were so used to playing while marching that they couldn't keep time standing still, so, they were able to march across the studio, make a turn, and march back and forth, the studio was big enough for that.

I forget what it said about how they miked it....actually, it might be helpful even though it doesn't deal specifically with drums:


Okay, here's the quote, from page 24:

"Though it may have been the largest purpose-built recording room in the world, the 'purpose' changed surreptitiously on a few occasions, without management's knowledge or consent. In 1969 there was an impromptu football match held there between rival recording groups, and at one point during later remodelling of the studio, the staff even drove their cars onto the studio floor, where they could be serviced free from the weather! The story of one unique session underscores the immense size of Studio One. A bagpipe marching band arrived at the studio ready to record, but found they were unable to play 'in time' while standing still; they had always performed while marching. So, with careful overhead positioning of the microphones [emphasis added], they were recorded while marching around the room. There was ample space for the entire band to make wide turns at each end of the room, and then continue marching back down to the other end."

I'm guessing this may have been a mono recording (not sure when this occurred) so that the marching back and forth wasn't quite as much of an issue.

Googled pages on recording second-line and marching drums but didn't come up with anything, there must be a discussion out there on how someone got a good marching-drum sound.

Think the beginning of the 20th Century Fox movie trailer/intro (not a film production expert here by any stretch)....with the huge snare drum sounds....you're not necessarily wanting it that big, but you want the drums to sound real. I think on a good stage (could be a theater...but is that too impractical) and you'll get a really really nice, big, yet detailed sound, with well-placed mics, just a pair.

[PhatStax Drums]

Re monitoring...how complicated is the rhythm they're playing? Probably a relatively simple, second-line groove? Don't get me wrong, the feel and technique are very important....but, if the beat doesn't change much and is pretty simple as far as song structure, then.....for monitoring, how about simply having someone conduct while they listen on headphones to the basic track they're overdubbing to? Would they still get an okay feel?

Or, a more hi-tech solution with the same idea (although I don't know much about MIDI and whether you could synch this to an existing playback)---still, the drummers wouldn't actually be hearing what they're playing to, but if they know what beat they're playing, it could work anyway:

Death Of The Click Track?

The Laser Metronome


The makers of the Laser Metronome believe that their new timing device may force click tracks into obscurity. Instead of a blinking light or audible signal, the Laser Metronome swings a laser beam back and forth at the desired tempo, providing a timing reference much more like that of a human conductor. By following a continuous visual cue, musicians have more freedom to let their time "breathe" a bit, without feeling like they're fighting a click track.
For studio use, the Laser Metronome is capable of communicating via MIDI, and is usually slaved to the recording hardware. For live performance or rehearsals, the Laser Metronome has a program mode with forty-eight storage locations for tempos, which can be cycled through using a standard footswitch. List price is $129.99. (978) 270-3193, LaserMetronome.com - Laser Metronome - for drummers and recording musicians. No more click track! THE metronome if you are a studio engineer, drummer, keyboard player guitar player ....

just a thought if enough headphones can't be provided

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by PhatStax Drums

Re monitoring...how complicated is the rhythm they're playing? Probably a relatively simple, second-line groove? Don't get me wrong, the feel and technique are very important....but, if the beat doesn't change much and is pretty simple as far as song structure, then.....for monitoring, how about simply having someone conduct while they listen on headphones to the basic track they're overdubbing to? Would they still get an okay feel?

Or, a more hi-tech solution with the same idea:

Death Of The Click Track?

The Laser Metronome


The makers of the Laser Metronome believe that their new timing device may force click tracks into obscurity. Instead of a blinking light or audible signal, the Laser Metronome swings a laser beam back and forth at the desired tempo, providing a timing reference much more like that of a human conductor. By following a continuous visual cue, musicians have more freedom to let their time "breathe" a bit, without feeling like they're fighting a click track.
For studio use, the Laser Metronome is capable of communicating via MIDI, and is usually slaved to the recording hardware. For live performance or rehearsals, the Laser Metronome has a program mode with forty-eight storage locations for tempos, which can be cycled through using a standard footswitch. List price is $129.99. (978) 270-3193, LaserMetronome.com - Laser Metronome - for drummers and recording musicians. No more click track! THE metronome if you are a studio engineer, drummer, keyboard player guitar player ....

just a thought if enough headphones can't be provided

I think they have been using something like that for competitions.