Vincente Amigo's flamenco guitar recordings - How can I get that sound?

[Shadow_7]

Anyone ever try Avenson STO-2's on nylon or steel stringed guitar? It's my only set of mics at the moment and I like them for the what you hear is what you get sound. They're often equated to the earthworks mics.

I previously had an AT4033a which I got because it sounded stellar at gearwire.com for steel string guitar. But I'm a brass player who likes to record the brass ensemble he plays with. And that mic was not well suited for that. Hyped lows, Hyped upper mids, unhyped lower mids. Or at least that was my impression.

As far as Sonja's POV, I completely understand it. I've heard similar things said of Loreena McKennitt with regards to her treatment of traditional Celtic music. Great music performed well, sure. True to it's heritage debateable. To Americanize it, I guess you would equate it to a military band playing the national anthem in a minor key. Maybe nothing wrong with it in an of itself. Until you're doing it at the presidential inauguration, the opening of a baseball game, or for the Olympics.

[manas]

Originally Posted by SoniA

I'm sorry but in academic world Paco is number ONE as player and developer of modern Flamenco...

Hi Sonia,

This is Manas from India it is great to know about you...well i m fascinated by flamenco muzik and have been trying to play listening to CDs and videos as well.I am keen to learn flamenco guitar...it wud be great if you cud you sugeest me something on this...and can i have your email id or msn...yahoo or anything like so that i can communicate with you ....hope to hear u soon bye

[Svens]

Great to hear that you dig Vicente Amigo, GuitarRuss! I've been listening to him for a long time and love his music (I'm not sure if I can say it here, since all the Paco lovers will tell me Paco is better...).

I recorded 3 Flamenco albums in the last years, most of em with Schoeps mics, sometimes with a MK21 (a wide cardiod) or in an MS setup. Preamp is either a Millennia HV3, or a Tube preamp such as an Avalon 737SM, trying to emulate his sound. Results depend on the guitarist most of the time, but (long & dense) reverb is a part of Vicentes sound if you ask me. "Ciudad de las ideas", my fav Vicente album, has quite a lot of lowend, especially on the ballads....

[Svens]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

Sonia,
I know De Lucia is the accepted master of the flamenco guitar but guess what - I don't enjoy listening to him as much as Vicente. Why? This might astound you, but it's not his playing... it's the arrangements and the timbre of the recordings. That fretless bass kills me, it's played way to fast like a guitar and it just bugs me. A bass should have some low end, and the bass in his recordings is always very trebly and gets on my nerves. Don't flame me for this, I can't help not liking that damn bass, as far as I'm concerned it wrecks a lot of great songs. I prefer his solo guitar stuff for this reason. I do love fretless, and play one myself, but not when it's played like the guy has had 10 cups of coffee a few Red Bulls to boot!

+1

[videoteque]

Carles Benavent, the bass player for Paco de Lucia, started playing with him in the 80s. But Paco was already a star in the mid 60s, first 70s... There are a LOT of LPs from Paco without a fretless bass!!!

To defend Carles I must say that his sound is pretty unique, I do like him. He has played with Chick Corea.

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by videoteque

Carles Benavent, the bass player for Paco de Lucia, started playing with him in the 80s. But Paco was already a star in the mid 60s, first 70s... There are a LOT of LPs from Paco without a fretless bass!!!

To defend Carles I must say that his sound is pretty unique, I do like him. He has played with Chick Corea.

Yeah, I know a lot of people who love it, it's just a matter of taste. What he plays is very difficult to play technically and he has great time and chops. Obviously Paco, and most of his fans love it, so that's what's important. I'm just glad there is a lot of variety out there for when something doesn't appeal to my tastes.

[videoteque]

The thing about Paco is that he brought a lot of things to flamenco, like the use of the "cajon" or the fusion with jazz (Paco played with Al di Meola, John McLaughlin). Most flamenco purists hate this and probably hate the fretless bass even more than you...

Of course Paco now is so famous and has brought flamenco outside Spain that even purists don't want to critic him, NOW.

I love artist who push the bar and bring new things. I love them even if I don't like the new thing they bring!

[Remoteness]

[aracu]

Paco de Lucia is great, but personally I prefer older, more traditional artists, as singers being accompanied by a guitar. Nina de la Pueblo for example, El Borico etc. There is a big world of flamenco which is worth exploring if you can get your hands on the cds.

[caraborso]

Originally Posted by SoniA

Dear Todd... I'm sorry but I have born into Flamenco and live into Flamenco, the "real" Flamenco. Not the flamenco for tourists. If you don't like the reality, you can not to change it by insulting me
If you lived here, you would have read these things on the local newspapers.
For us, Flamenco purists, there is only one Flamenco: the Flamenco.
Vicente play music flamencoized : aflamencada. The style that he play isn't Flamenco. It is him personal style that is a mix of electric guitar style and a little bit of elementary Flamenco style as his bad and very flabby picado (muy flojo y nada de duende), timid rasgueo and almost nothing of character into pulgar.
The teachers bring as example Vicente to explain what it is not good for the Flamenco...
The juice is: Vicente you cannot call Flamenco what is not Flamenco.
People: if you like the music by Vicente it's right but you have to know that it is not true Flamenco and Vicente isn't a great guitarist that not-spanish people believe. Sonia

Dear Sonia.
I´m from Cadiz, Andalucia, like you. I hope the fact that it´s my first message is not obstacle to express my opinion. I´ve never read so much nonsense and stupid together. I´m a recording engineer who works with the main artist of flamenco Style in Spain, for over last 20 years. I had record and mixing albums for Tomatito, Duquende, Enrique Morente, Estrella Morente, José Mercé, Rancapino, Lebrijano, Paco Peña, Gerardo Nuñez, Cañizares... ¿it´s enough for you? (it´s a never ending list, and i have no enough RAM at the moment)
I don´t know why did you say these things. I know that A personal opinion is just that, and I can only say that I respect any opinion. But i NEVER heard something about that Vicente is a “flamencoed” artist....or something about that Vicente is “el capuyo”. Really does people at your “university” think that? Really??? I must say, that EL Capuyo is only One. (One of the greatest vocalist of Flamenco today), and his name is Miguel Flores, from jerez de la Frontera. I think that you have no idea about Flamenco (i´m sure about it) and your “teachers” on your “university” hasn´t got any idea about flamenco. Of course you have an opinion. But your opinion is senseless.
I agree with Todd (Gerard?) You are Idiot. And it´s a shame, that people from Andalucia, People who intend to know about flamenco, doesn´t really know anything about it.
Unfortunately, my english is very poor, and i´m afraid not to be able to express everything that i want, correctly.
In Spain. Vincente is considered one of the greatest flamenco artists at the moment, for everybody (the critics, musicians, journalists, general public and flamenco fans). And the rest of comunity of flamenco style (cantaores), who thinks that Vicente is one of the best PRODUCERS, composer and guitar player in Flamenco style. It is not only his own records, but the rest of productions he has made for other artist, like remedios Amaya, El pele, Jose Mercé, and many others famous flamenco artists.
Sonia, I´m afraid that you have still much to learn. In your life, at the "university" (which apparently did not teach you anything), and all about Flamenco style.
Another thing could be something like this: “I don´t like Vicente, I don´t like his music, his style, and his way about flamenco” . That´s all and simply. And more understanding.
Finally, about the original question. The mic, position, etc....
Vicente usually do his records with only one mic. The firsts albums (recorded at Musitron) was recorded with Neumann U87 and sometimes with U67...., always with Summit preamp, and summit comp.
On “Ciudad de las Ideas”, he worked with U87 and Avalon 737 on tracking. Sometimes he used Bruel 4011, but it´s anecdotic. The position is simple: in front of the right hand, about 25 cms. The reberb is always HALL, with 3 seconds (or more !). But i can say that the sound is produced by himself. he has got the sound on his hands and mind. You could do the records with a crab, and the sound would be great, like Vicente´s sounds. He is really special. Today, sombody told me about he is working with a Kahayan Mp1 preamp (neve 1072 clone style) and Avalon ad 2044 comp, with an Earthworks mic.
I´m very sorry for my poor english.
Best Regards to evrybody

Mario G. Alberni
Mastering Engineer.
KADIFORNIA MASTERING | Estudio especializado en mastering de El Puerto de Santa María

[videoteque]

Mario, se te ha entendido perfectamente!thumbsup

[nandi]

Hey, Sonia, give us few names of those hidden flamenco masters, maybe we'll learn a bit.
An important part of Vicente Amigo's sound is the way he picks the guitar, the angle of the fingers of the right hand, a mix of fingernail and fingertip.
I've tried few setups and I found that a AudiotechnicaAE4100 mic->Great River preamp -> RNLA comp->any good converter works well. But is important to have a "white" guitar, not palisander/cedar kind. It's like a Telecaster/LesPaul difference.
Best

[Manolian]

Originally Posted by caraborso

Dear Sonia.
I´m from Cadiz, Andalucia, like you. I hope the fact that it´s my first message is not obstacle to express my opinion. I´ve never read so much nonsense and stupid together. I´m a recording engineer who works with the main artist of flamenco Style in Spain, for over last 20 years. I had record and mixing albums for Tomatito, Duquende, Enrique Morente, Estrella Morente, José Mercé, Rancapino, Lebrijano, Paco Peña, Gerardo Nuñez, Cañizares... ¿it´s enough for you? (it´s a never ending list, and i have no enough RAM at the moment)
I don´t know why did you say these things. I know that A personal opinion is just that, and I can only say that I respect any opinion. But i NEVER heard something about that Vicente is a “flamencoed” artist....or something about that Vicente is “el capuyo”. Really does people at your “university” think that? Really??? I must say, that EL Capuyo is only One. (One of the greatest vocalist of Flamenco today), and his name is Miguel Flores, from jerez de la Frontera. I think that you have no idea about Flamenco (i´m sure about it) and your “teachers” on your “university” hasn´t got any idea about flamenco. Of course you have an opinion. But your opinion is senseless.
I agree with Todd (Gerard?) You are Idiot. And it´s a shame, that people from Andalucia, People who intend to know about flamenco, doesn´t really know anything about it.
Unfortunately, my english is very poor, and i´m afraid not to be able to express everything that i want, correctly.
In Spain. Vincente is considered one of the greatest flamenco artists at the moment, for everybody (the critics, musicians, journalists, general public and flamenco fans). And the rest of comunity of flamenco style (cantaores), who thinks that Vicente is one of the best PRODUCERS, composer and guitar player in Flamenco style. It is not only his own records, but the rest of productions he has made for other artist, like remedios Amaya, El pele, Jose Mercé, and many others famous flamenco artists.
Sonia, I´m afraid that you have still much to learn. In your life, at the "university" (which apparently did not teach you anything), and all about Flamenco style.
Another thing could be something like this: “I don´t like Vicente, I don´t like his music, his style, and his way about flamenco” . That´s all and simply. And more understanding.
Finally, about the original question. The mic, position, etc....
Vicente usually do his records with only one mic. The firsts albums (recorded at Musitron) was recorded with Neumann U87 and sometimes with U67...., always with Summit preamp, and summit comp.
On “Ciudad de las Ideas”, he worked with U87 and Avalon 737 on tracking. Sometimes he used Bruel 4011, but it´s anecdotic. The position is simple: in front of the right hand, about 25 cms. The reberb is always HALL, with 3 seconds (or more !). But i can say that the sound is produced by himself. he has got the sound on his hands and mind. You could do the records with a crab, and the sound would be great, like Vicente´s sounds. He is really special. Today, sombody told me about he is working with a Kahayan Mp1 preamp (neve 1072 clone style) and Avalon ad 2044 comp, with an Earthworks mic.
I´m very sorry for my poor english.
Best Regards to evrybody

Mario G. Alberni
Mastering Engineer.
KADIFORNIA MASTERING | Estudio especializado en mastering de El Puerto de Santa María

Bravo Mario, muy bien dicho!

[JohannesW]

Originally Posted by caraborso

Vicente

This Vicente?

YouTube - Vicente Amigo - Tio Arango - Solea (Flamenco Guitar)

[Manolian]

Originally Posted by JohannesW

This Vicente?

YouTube - Vicente Amigo - Tio Arango - Solea (Flamenco Guitar)

Yes that's him, BTW I saw him in concert in NYC back in 2006 ,he sounded exactly like he does on recordings , they use a ton of reverb and delay on his guitar mic.

[Teddy Ray]

I didn't see anything wrong with Sonia's posting..

she has direct experience as a native. Valuable feedback.

[aracu]

I was wondering if anyone has heard the Japanese flamenco guitars made in the 70's by the guitar maker Matsuoka.

[7rojo7]

If you want to learn english go to Malta or Beliz. If you want to know what it's like to be English, go to Manchester.
You can stick a mic up your arse (M269?)
the performer is #1
Mick Jagger sounds the same on a 57 or a 251
there's a lot to be said about tradition and this should be respected, but those who touch our hearts regardless of any criticism should be respected as well.
RCA JV74 behind the bridge and Schoeps CCM21 at the 12th fret, both pointed at the same angle, mics and their position are more important than anything that remains down the line. The performance is #1

[Dufcug]

Originally Posted by Manolian

Bravo Mario, muy bien dicho!

I'm almost speechless that someone could have the audacity to call Vicente Amigo's picado 'flabby'. It begs the question 'have you actually listened to it?' Perhaps it was one of those pretenders on YouTube... As for the 'timid' rasqueado - well, I tell you what, since I mentioned YouTube, check out the final minute of 'callejon de la luna' from the concert in Cordoba in 2008. Timid it ain't! Commanding, precise, sharp, powerful just to use a few words. But timid...? It seems that most of the world considers him to be in a fairly exclusive flamenco club, including the likes of the great Paco de Lucia, whom, I gather, rates him quite highly.... But I'm sure you know best...