CBS - Summer in the City 2007

[Remoteness]

Dig the Summer 2007 FOH (Not So Big) Music Mix/Record Rig Rev 1.

[rmx16]

Steve
I like the C-clamp to the doghouse

Peace

[Remoteness]

Yeah, I got keep those speakers in place.

[Plush]

major line up

niiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssch!

[rmx16]

Are you liking the M7? What's your recording medium?

Rob

[zarembo]

hey Steve, nice rig!

what are the vertically racked pieces on the left side?

[bishopthomas]

Rob, that's the new Tascam X48 to the right of the console. I want to know why the other one isn't up for a backup. Please tell me you just left it out of the picture, Steve. Without seeing the backup unit I'm not sure that this is really your rig.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Plush

major line up

niiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssch!

Thanks Plush!

Originally Posted by rmx16

Are you liking the M7? What's your recording medium?

Rob

I'll know for sure by the end of the summer, but at the moment we (Jon D'Uva & I) are very pleased with the desk. We have not A/B'd it, but it sounds very nice.
We will also have a PM5D on the road so, I plan to A/B the two when possible.
I wish more digital consoles were setup as simply as this one.
The compressors sound very good...
Can you believe that?
The gates work well.
The EQ's are very good...
We're using mostly them in (type II) for music.
When I need to cut more (than shape the sound) I'll use type I.
Type II seems more musical.

I wish the faders would move along with the DCA master faders...
I mean a ProMix 01 and a 01V can do it, why not a M7CL?
The faders move together when you link them, but not when you attach a DCA master fader...
IMO, that's too bad.

Oh, the recording rig is a Tascam X48, but we are not taking it on this gig since the client doesn't have the budget to use it.
It's a live TV morning show and they don't need the media.
I tried to explain how we can use it to record the sound checks and rehearsals so I can tweak the mix up until show it, but NO GO JOE!
Hey, it's TV and we're only audio. ...And, that is that.

Originally Posted by zarembo

hey Steve, nice rig!

what are the vertically racked pieces on the left side?

Thanks!

Well, they are vertical when I mix with the speakers standing up.
I have a Crown D75 for headphone monitoring and a Klark Teknik DN7204 stereo 4way DDL to time delay the speakers and headphone mix when we're setup in the same room or area as the sound source.
This setup was designed to be used with an analog desk that doesn't have a DDL in the monitor section, The Yamaha M7CL has a DDL. Very cool!
I didn't want to remove the DDL since it also is distributing the feeds to the nearfields and headphones.

We placed two Dorrough loudness meters in the 2U hole in the right speaker rack to monitor the output of our audio distribution amplifier.
The remaining open 2U hole in the center rack above the Marshall LCDs got a nice vent panel .

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Rob, that's the new Tascam X48 to the right of the console. I want to know why the other one isn't up for a backup. Please tell me you just left it out of the picture, Steve. Without seeing the backup unit I'm not sure that this is really your rig.

Ha Ha Ha...

Well tom, the X48 is being used as a test rig in the field shop.
WE ARE NOT BRINGING IT WITH US...
And, I'm so sorry about it because IMHO, it would be the most important part of the rig.
I really could have used it to tweak the mix.
I have to mix on the fly at FOH and that's a drag, but I have some ideas on how I can maximize the positive of my situation.

[Remoteness]

i'm gonna take a few more picture of the completed rig before we dismantle it for travel...

Stay tuned.

Hey, if you have any more questions of thoughts, I'm all ears...

I may post a few pictures from the various locations if it's cool with you folks.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I may post a few pictures from the various locations if it's cool with you folks.

I hope you do!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[nobasil]

Hi Steve!
I would also like to hear when you have compared the desk to others. It looks like you haven't installed anything in the slots, so I assume you're using the on-board pres. I was surprised because when we got an M7CL in the theater I was working at, the guy who installed it sort of talked down about it saying it had a lot of features but was cheap because of the sound quality.

[Remoteness]

The head amps sound good to us on their own, but time will tell when I A/B the desk with real mics.
At this point I only played with the desk via the X48.
With that said, at this point I'm impressed with the quality of the desk and it's features.
IMO, it's a great value for the price point.

[Plush]

The latest generation of mic amps (really a "head-amp" as Remoteness says) sound very good. They are not thin and trebly like the old days of the ProMix 01.

This family of front end is shared on the DM2000, DM1000, and this series as well.

I use a combo plate of outboard mic amps and the stock mic amps on the DM1000 and I can tell you that the sound is good.

I don't think one need look down on Yamaha sound these days.

The mic amp in question was designed by Yamaha and Deutsche Gramophon in a collaboration. DG would not permit inferior sound.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The head amps sound good to us on their own, but time will tell when I A/B the desk with real mics.
At this point I only played with the desk via the X48.
With that said, at this point I'm impressed with the quality of the desk and it's features.
IMO, it's a great value for the price point.

Hi Steve,

With all due respect and given your visible (homepage) background also in pro audio -- come on, this level of monitors and stating that M7CL preamp are good.

You need to open an M7CL (tons of screws) to know how little of preamp electronic you get for (very lean analog circuitry or power supply)...

Now performing A/B testing with quality condenser microphones in a quality analog preamp plugged directly to quality 2-way monitors -- would give an ear reminder up again!

I have been an early adopter of Yamaha live digital console : impressive mixing engines in digital domain (agree with musicality of type II EQ, now dynamics...) but with respect to the analog domain circuitry : we get is what we pay for and do not carry anymore.

I am adept of both world (great analog and great digital) but despite all the back-breaking of carrying (preferrably rolling) great analog console (up to 800Lbs) with heavy linear PSU and linear power supply amplifiers (up to 125Lbs each) ... still deep in my heart and in between my ears -- those true analog circuitry designs remain unbeatable. An A/B testing (eyes closed) in between 'light' equipment (digital + power switching) versus 'heavy' (analog + linear PSU) sounds immediately different -- guess which one is more real, acoustic, deep, stereo width and depth, organic and alive?

How about an EX56 or J type versus PM5D or M7CL sonic match?

Still in the live sound arena : only FOH line array systems (OK only 3 systems are real ones; world wide -- rest is just marketing brochures) is the only exception where smaller sounds bigger and much more coherent but this time by real improvement of the physics.

Would have Picasso compromises using water painting for commercial reason (1/10th of cost)?

In creative domains : never follow or compromise -- should be our leitmotiv.

Nice flight cases by the way!

Hope to sent out a refreshing & inspiring message (main intention)



Regards -- Laurent

[Remoteness]

A nice and juicy response from Laurent.

With all due respect, screw my visible (homepage) background in professional audio.
Who gives a freak about my background? I had an opinion about what I heard under simple conditions and that is that.

IMO, those sMackie monitors and M7CL desk are just fine for what we’re doing this summer. I’m not tracking anything (with that desk) and it’s a morning TV show with a tight budget.

And, yes those M7CL head amps do sound good. I didn’t say they were great and I did say time will tell. Furthermore, I don’t need to open my M7CL (tons of screws or not) to state that I was impressed with the quality of the desk and its features. It’s an opinion. In any event it is still a great value for the price point.

I will never perform an A/B test between an analog preamp of any quality against the M7CL. I plan to listen between the PM5D and the M7CL. And, that is that.

You’re right – I should plug a condenser mic into one of my quality mic preamplifiers directly into a pair of quality 2-way monitors – I definitely need to remind myself what good sound is. It’s been a few days since I’ve done that… I am lost. Should I consider a ribbon mic instead?

I understand where you’re coming from, but you could consider the type of project we’re working on and base things on that dynamic. Approaching this the “right way” based on your thoughts would have been cost prohibitive to say the least.

Yes, you get what you don’t pay for… And I did not pay for high quality head amps.
My future plans are to stay in the digital domain. The front end of this system is to be determined.

No one was comparing those unbeatable (true) analog circuitry designs in this thread, but you. I wouldn't even think of it. There is not question that those great analog consoles you mentioned would smoke (sound quality wise) this low to mid range desk.

I don’t know - Would Picasso compromise his work by using water based paint for commercial reasons? It’s hard to say. Would you have told him what the budget was?

At least I can walk way from this with one positive impression from you – I have some nice flight cases!

…Hey, I got that going for me.

Thank you for the stimulating, but stirring message.

[fifthcircle]

... Interesting thread. I'm a big fan of the M7CL. I think the PM5D's head amps probably sound a bit better from what I've heard, but the layout of the M7 is probably one of the simplest digital boards I've seen. It sounds pretty darned good too- my clients have been very happy with the results they've gotten when I've mixed on one. I wouldn't mind getting to spend some serious time on the new Soundcraft, but that is in a whole other world of function.

I'd be interested in seeing how you compare the M7 to the 5D...

--Ben

[bishopthomas]

I am also interested in a comparison between the two consoles. In the live world it seems that everyone WANTS a PM5D, but they'll TAKE an M7CL. So for rider purposes why would anyone buy the 5D when a console a third of the price will be just fine? I have used the M7 and LS9 a little bit and have watched people work on the PM5D. It seems like they all can do the same thing, but the 5D has an extra 600 ways to get those tasks accomplished. So I would love to hear how they compare in sound quality.

Laurent - You must compare apples to apples. Of course there are better sounding consoles/preamps out there. That doesn't make everything else bad. Do you suggest taking only the very best and most expensive gear with you on every job? You would take your 800 lb console and racks of outboard gear for a low paying job? Now you are immediately hiring an extra 2 people and adding hours to your day just to bring "only the best." Not to mention the wear and tear on your gear, a bigger truck (rented or owned), more gas...... Doesn't sound like a smart business plan to me.

[Remoteness]

Based on what I've heard from folks I trust, I’m not sure if the M7CL will hold its own against the PM5D. Equal or equivalent is not a word I’d use at the moment; how could it be at that price tag?

But, how much of a difference is it compared to the price difference.
That’s another evaluation that needs to be addressed.

Unless I get a slamming front end for that desk, I don't think I'll ever track with the M7CL alone.
I still like the sound of analog pres, but like I've said before, "time will tell."

The recording budget is also a major consideration.
If the client cannot hear the difference and they don’t have enough bread to do it right, do you give them options and work your engineering magic to make it all work out for the best or do you pass on the date because you hate to relate to that quality of cheese?

I know one thing, I’ll be using it as a live mix desk -- I have not doubt it will perform just fine in that scenario.

The PM5D RH is on most riders these days, but just recently I've seen M7CL and LS9 pop up on a couple.

There will be an LS9-32 used along side of the M7CL-48 and PM5D on one of the dates we're doing this summer.
LS9 = FOH; PM5D = MON; M7CL = Broadcast Music Mix.
If there's enough time, I want to A/B/C all three desks.
The FOH engineer for one of the major acts we're working with loves his (LS9) mixer and thinks it sounds awesome.
I'll do my best not to let him read any of the stirring posts from this thread.
I don't want him to change his mind before the gig.
I'm a bit self-seeking about this, I want to test all three desks together and that gig would be the perfect opportunity.

[fifthcircle]

Steve-

Forgot to mention- an external clock will help the sound of the M7 in enormous ways... (for that matter, it will help the entire line of Yamaha mixers as that is IMO one of their really weak points). Obviously won't help the analog front end, but it makes a huge difference for the digital side.

I usually grab my old Aardsync II when I mix on the M7, but any of the decent clocks out there I think would be a big help. On the 5D, we usually rent (bring along) a better clock that does 96K. Usually a Big Ben, Nanosync or similar...

--Ben

[Remoteness]

Thanks Ben, that makes a lot of sense.

[Axiomhead]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Dig the Summer 2007 FOH (Not So Big) Music Mix/Record Rig Rev 1.

Dude... Thats one sweet rig!

[LX3]

Getting away from consoles for a second... how are the X48s working out for you Steve? The X-48 threads seem to have gone a bit quiet...

Which input boards did you go for? Unfortunate that Tascam make you put all your eggs in one particular basket.

I eventually came to the conclusion that if I went for an X48, the most versatile approach would be to get the analog boards and be done with it. The AES boards are virtually the same price, and I can't feed AES into very many desks for monitoring. The ADAT boards result in a bunch of gotchas too. (far too many manufacturers not supporting 96kHz over ADAT).

So the question is, how is anyone feeling about the Tascam's A to D?

The other big Q... how is monitoring with the built-in DSP mixer? I'm not sure I could live with all the mousing around, so was planning on using a desk to monitor, but it's more gear to haul in and out of venues. A stroke of genius on Tascam's part that the X48 is designed to work with a control surface that they don't make any more!

Sorry, a lot of thinking out loud there. Steve, as always, you're an inspiration.

Paul

[Remoteness]

Paul,

As of this post our X48s are working very well for us without any hiccups and such.

At the moment we have the analog boards installed.
I plan to get the AES boards in the near future.

I have not done an A/B test on their converters, but they sound acceptable to me.

The built-in (DSP) mixer is a very cool concept.
We are not using it to its fullest capacity, so I don’t want to comment on it until I play around with it some more, but the limited playing around time gave me the impression that it’s a pretty cool feature.

I’m also bummed out that Tascam discontinued their control surface.
It just doesn’t make much sense, but whatcha gonna do?
Third party controller of some sort I guess.

steve remote .. x48's

[Remoteness]

So, here are a few pictures from our first of the series of shows we're doing this summer...

[Remoteness]

Yet a few more picture for your review...

[Remoteness]

Have you had enough?

Here's some more shots (of the Jon, Tim, Katharine and I) anyway...

[Remoteness]

Here's a shot of the stage when the park opened for business.

I have a bunch of other shots other than the music mix world @ FOH.
They show the other elements of this production venture.

I didn't want to overload the bandwidth...
Maybe I'll post them if you folks want to see more.

[IDOAUDIO]

Hey Steve,
Great pictures. I can really see the gear you are using. I know most the gear by looking, but 1 thing I can't make out. You have a 3 monitor unit in the center rack above your console. The left monitor has Bars on it, the center looks like a camera or program feed, but what is that face on the right monitor?

Great shots

Now- to tell about the show, from my view. I'm Tim, the house and monitor engineer on this tour.
The first show in Orlando was actually smooth, and sounded good (if I don't say so myself). Being the first show of the season, and putting various companies’ gear together, it was a sometimes-slow process, but the outcome was great.

From my end of the snake, I have all the easy basic stuff you would find on any real tour or studio visit. I'm doing double duty mixing (FOH and Monitors) on a Yamaha PM5d-rh. I'm using all the EQ's, FX and Dynamics on-board. Being outside, in heat and weather, I wanted to keep in minimal.

Speaking of weather- <i><b>Lets talk about RAIN. </b></i> For anyone that has asked themselves-"Will a pair of sennheiser 416's work after being left out in a torrential downpour?" the answer is YES, they do. You need the aftermarket option of a $19 hair drier and they will be fine. <i>(Mental note- mics may live, but your career may take a hit if the owner of those mics is anywhere around)</i>

Back to the mix position, I feed the PM5D into a Shure PSM 700 rack of wireless ears, Shure P6 Wired ears and Clair modified QSC amps powering Clair 12 AM's. The ears have the typical Shure antenna combiner, going to a paddle, or Professional wireless helical antenna. I have a Whirlwind PCDI to hook up an Ipod for general music. Again, all basic standard stuff. I have WINRADIO running to scan frequencies, and SMAART live, but I really don't look at it much. Just there for set-up and comfort more than function during the show. I am also running Yamaha Studio manager, to make changes to the PM5d, but again, more comfort than function during the show.

As stated a few times now, I'm doing FOH as well from the desk, so my stereo bus feeds a small vertek rig flown as needed. In Orlando, they had a nice installed rig (EAW 850 type cloans). So, we didn't fly the array. One less thing to deal with on the first date. I am using an XTA processor in the amp racks, to process the rig, while using the Graphics 11 and 12 on the 5d for eq's.


More info to come after we get week 2 under our belts. Getting the Mix Minus sounding clean and crisp, without feedback is the biggest challenge of my gig. Having talent walk in front of the line array with lav’s on and talking is a bit tough at times.

OK, you’ve had enough, time to read other forums.

Timmy

[nathanvacha]

hey steve, you're down in my neck of the woods! if you'll be around, i'll head out to universal and say hi

[Remoteness]

Yeah, we were in Orlando last week...
We will be in Raleigh this week and Charleston the following week.

The only reason why we had a 2AM call on Thursday was for the fact that Wednesday was the forth of July and the Park could not give production access to the facility, so 2AM it was...

Thankfully, we have 8 or 9AM calls for all the other (Thursday) music audio load-in days.
4AM will still be the call time on (each and every) Friday.
Not too bad since we "should" be done by 1PM or so.