recording strings

[fifthcircle]

Depends on the sound you're going for... Four passes on a quartet do not equal four on a part. The acoustics just don't work that way (and that keeps a lot of players working in an otherwise dead scene here in LA).

To get a good section sound in a good room, I'd go at least 4-5 firsts, 4-5 seconds, 3-4 viola, 3 cello and 2 bass. Doing a couple passes with this will work pretty well. For me, my optimal section is usually at least 2-3 times that size, but alas budgets often don't allow for that.

What I usually do is a small decca tree with flanks and then spots on each section (probably one mic per 2 stands). Depending on how live the room is, I also may do a pass without the main mics on as the "wash" can become overwhealming in some rooms and in other rooms a bad acoustic is replicated. Neither of which is desirable.

Sounds like a fun project... Enjoy.

--Ben

[belairstudio]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Depends on the sound you're going for... Four passes on a quartet do not equal four on a part. The acoustics just don't work that way (and that keeps a lot of players working in an otherwise dead scene here in LA).

very true, that's why I want a bigger lineup this time

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

To get a good section sound in a good room, I'd go at least 4-5 firsts, 4-5 seconds, 3-4 viola, 3 cello and 2 bass. Doing a couple passes with this will work pretty well. For me, my optimal section is usually at least 2-3 times that size, but alas budgets often don't allow for that.

I forgot to mention it's a pop record, so a very large ensamble maybe avoided (probably)

budget and time will allow for a 12 people ensamble and just a couple passes, I was thinking 4 firsts, 3 secinds, 3 violas, 2 cellos... or maybe 1 cello and 1 bass but parts have been written for qartet...

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

What I usually do is a small decca tree with flanks and then spots on each section (probably one mic per 2 stands). Depending on how live the room is, I also may do a pass without the main mics on as the "wash" can become overwhealming in some rooms and in other rooms a bad acoustic is replicated. Neither of which is desirable.

I wanted to try the decca with flanks... nice reminding me..



thanks mate!

any other point of view?

[narcoman]

if its a nice room go decca and flanks. spot mics also, seeing as its pop.

I do a lot of orchestral recording for picture but have done quite a bit of pop stuff too.

Ive often done 8,7,6,6,1 - the bass is purely there for anchoring the players at the time, not really for the sound. You can get away with less if its for 70's shimmery disco lines, just have 5,5,4,4,0

[belairstudio]

thanks narcoman

but didn't anybody get good results with a doubled smaller ensamble? like 12 people?

budget budget!!!

[chymer]

I have gotten away with just 3 players. 1st/2nd/cello....no viola.

This was on a tight budget and we overdubbed alot, but I was very surprised with the results.
Im sure you could get away with less.
Chymer

[Sigma]

i've cut hundrends of string dates for R&B and Pop songs

6 , 3 and 1 is smallest i'd go with and just double it

8 , 4 and 2 would be great doubled if ya got the bucks..

be selective how you pan the string parts after doubling.. it makes a BIG differenece

choose if ya want "in your face" strings or "airy" ones and MIC accordingly [ don't let verb be the only denomiator]

in my experience, string players like monitor speakers in the studio room as opposed to single cup headphones..make them comfortable

good string players make good sounds..don't hire students or bit players they can get their chops in time but not yours..get folks in the local orchestra

[belairstudio]

Originally Posted by chymer

I have gotten away with just 3 players. 1st/2nd/cello....no viola.

This was on a tight budget and we overdubbed alot, but I was very surprised with the results.
Im sure you could get away with less.
Chymer

thanks chymer!


I recorded many quartets, but they don't have the spaciousness of a larger ensamble when doubled... plus I think makin them play 5 times the same piece sucks often the budget of a larger thing with just 2 passes

[belairstudio]

Originally Posted by Sigma

i've cut hundrends of string dates for R&B and Pop songs

6 , 3 and 1 is smallest i'd go with and just double it

8 , 4 and 2 would be great doubled if ya got the bucks..

be selective how you pan the string parts after doubling.. it makes a BIG differenece

choose if ya want "in your face" strings or "airy" ones and MIC accordingly [ don't let verb be the only denomiator]

in my experience, string players like monitor speakers in the control room as opposed to single cup headphones..make them comfortable

good string players make good sounds..don't hire students or bit players they can get their chops in time but not yours..get folks in the local orchestra

Thanks mike

why do you cut one part (violas I suppose, or cello?) instead of doing a smaller first violins lineup?

anyway my parts are 4 parts that's why I thought 4 3 3 2.... bad idea?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by belairstudio

thanks narcoman

but didn't anybody get good results with a doubled smaller ensamble? like 12 people?

budget budget!!!

To me this is more an aspect of the orchestration, not the budget or the size of the room. Let the orchestration and the weight (or lack thereof) determine the number of players you call.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Sigma

ing players like monitor speakers in the control room as opposed to single cup headphones..make them comfortable

??? In almost 3 decades of recording in LA, I've never seen this. Even once. Must be an east coast thing.....

[fifthcircle]

Despite all the jokes, I'd still keep an even section. Without violas, there is a big section of range missing between the violins and the cellos.

Your smaller section will work fine- not as well as a larger one (if that is the sound you're going for), but you will certainly get a much better sound than overdubbing a quartet. I find that with orchestral stuff, for violins, you really do want 3 on a part at least to create a section sound. For viola, cello and bass, you can get away with 2 per but the violas and cellos will benefit with 3. That said, if you have 3 violas and 3 cellos, you'll probably also need 4 per for violins. Just the way things balance out.

Of course it depends on how the parts are arranged, but the orchestral bass is important too. It anchors the entire string sound. If parts are well written, it won't interfere with the bass in the band as they should have 2 different functions.

Also, with the flanking microphones, you may find that with a smaller ensemble that they don't work so well... Flanks will help make the sound wider, but in a pop setting, you may not want/need that. The tree with spots will get you a heck of a lot.

Oh and I've never heard of monitors in the control room either. Here in LA, most of the string players that work a lot bring their own single-ear headphone to gigs. If they don't have their own, they grab one of the studio's single-ear headphones.

--Ben

[narcoman]

we call 'em "van goughs" here! (single earphones).

Sigma's suggestion of doubling a small section works fine in pop terms. Not very symphonic, but then thats not what you're looking for!

Doubling does work, but youve REALLY gotta keep an eye (well, ear actually) on intonation...

As for the above post about the v-bass achoring the sound - absolutely. Its a godsend for the otherplayers, even though much of it wont particularly affect a pop record. Intonation is a little easier to hold with a good bass player (bass viol we're talking, not electric!!) - as the above say - locks the rest of the players in. Its a little more dependable.

On all my session my main ally is a long term cohort bass player. Makes the string dates a breeze - he's very strict at keeping others in and not afraid to smack some wrists....

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by belairstudio

Thanks mike

why do you cut one part (violas I suppose, or cello?) instead of doing a smaller first violins lineup?

anyway my parts are 4 parts that's why I thought 4 3 3 2.... bad idea?

we do the all the strings together and if there are 2 parts the second row of violins takes that part..

most of the time for our stuff the vlo and cello's played the same part and there would be 1 or 2 vln parts

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by drBill

??? In almost 3 decades of recording in LA, I've never seen this. Even once. Must be an east coast thing.....

hmm weird i thought it was the norm ..i mean we had telex singles [btw i like the "van Gogh's " term] but if ya asked a violin player they would rather not have a headphone and cable dangling from there head and to me intonation would be easier also

the double was a perfect cancel on the boxes

but that was never a problem with us because most of the string players were from the world reknowned philadelphia orchestra and from the opera company

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by drBill

??? In almost 3 decades of recording in LA, I've never seen this. Even once. Must be an east coast thing.....

oops i meant in the studio..i changed it..wouldn't make sense otherwise

[belairstudio]

Thanks guys, great tips!


I've got 2 questions that came up

1) Budget says 12 people max. Since you all agree a bass player is great to have, what about 4 firsts - 3 seconds - 3 violas - 1 cello AND 1 bass? good idea? or better go with 2 cellos?

2) would it be better to have a GREAT quartet or an AVERAGE 12 piece ensamble? (by average I mean working orchestrals anyway.....)

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by belairstudio

Thanks guys, great tips!


I've got 2 questions that came up

1) Budget says 12 people max. Since you all agree a bass player is great to have, what about 4 firsts - 3 seconds - 3 violas - 1 cello AND 1 bass? good idea? or better go with 2 cellos?

2) would it be better to have a GREAT quartet or an AVERAGE 12 piece ensamble? (by average I mean working orchestrals anyway.....)

personally for pop i 'd go with 2 cello's unless you are doing a sparse open ballad the heavy bottom of a bass will get lost or waste energy


normally it would be 4 4 2 2 for our sessions

but if ya want the second strings lighter then go for it..really in your situation it depends on the tune and what ya want to get outta it

BTW who wrote the arrangement? to me they would have the best grasp as to the the players after you give them the limitations

12 piece if you ar speaking that caliber of average..all those people playing against one another makes a really dense lush sound that stacking a quartet just won't do

[belairstudio]

I wrote the arrangement

but it's the first time I record a large section


so you'd go with only 2 violas.. the reason I'm trying to keep it 3 it's because intonation and wideness tend to be better with more than 2 ...

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by belairstudio

I wrote the arrangement

but it's the first time I record a large section


so you'd go with only 2 violas.. the reason I'm trying to keep it 3 it's because intonation and wideness tend to be better with more than 2 ...

then i think for your stuff ya answered your own question after some input from the board..good luck!