Classical music

[TLMUSIC]

Hi, i want to expand my musical tastes on an endeavor to improve my production knowledge.

For example - i want to find good string music / violins / cello etc - to help me understand the instrument, it's various applications, the way it can be realistically played, harmonically as well as melodically etc etc

Ensembles / duets and so on..

Basically can someone suggest some good classical (or anything really) music to get me started..

Also some horn based music would be sweet too

Peace..

[Alex Niedt]

Man, the possibilities are endless here. The first one that pops into my mind...

I'd suggest starting with a trip to a public library. Just check out a bunch of classical CD's for free, providing you're not one of the a**holes who steals them. Maybe have someone there help pick out a selection to give you a broad overview. Then you could begin to narrow down the particular period/composers/etc. you're interested in.

[khameln]

I would say, don't listen to classical music in order to help your production knowledge. Just check it out, and learn to love it for what it is, on it's own; then the benefit will follow. If you keep checking classical out while thinking of production, it's going to taint the experience and you will miss most of the benefit.

So like Alex said, just find some classical music, keep reading on who the greats were, and keep checking stuff out. *Explore* and immerse yourself in it. And if you truly learn to love and enjoy it for what it is, it will naturally come out in your work.

[matyas]

Over on the "Remote Possibilities" forum, there's a thread going on called "Classical Reference Recordings." Check it out. Also, classical music is really meant to be experienced live. Go check out some performances! Good luck, happy listening, and feel free to PM for more info.

[Alex Niedt]

Originally Posted by matyas

Also, classical music is really meant to be experienced live.

Agreed. With classical, no recording is ever going to compete with being there live.

[ReaLsoN]

^^^Aboslutely agreed 150%!

Definitely go check out some good live performances. If you wanne buy classical CD´s, don´t buy cheap ones, cause most of the cheap CD´s don´t sound very good ( at least the cheap ones I heard).

If you like Violin - you might wanne check out Mr. Izak Perlman ... absolutely incredible violinist. Same with Nigel Kennedy.

In terms of cello, a must peep is Mr. Mstislav Rostropovich!

This list could go on for days, but I´m in a hurry now. Hope this helps a least a little?!

[doorknocker]

I can highly recommend the RCA 'Living Stereo' recordings that were beautifully re-issued on CD/SACD. The sonic quality of these 50ies recordings (or at least the ones I've heard like the Bartok 'Concerto for Orchestra') is mind-blowing.

Amazon.de: RCA Living Stereo SACD Hybrid

[Kadaken]

Check out a metal band called Rhapsody. They implement the baroque and classical style music. It's still metal. But it was actually my transition from classical to metal. And it's epic.

Other wise my first inspiration for piano was
Beethoven
Rachmaninoff was my second favorite.

Beethoven was especially great to me because he used the vibrations of his music to decide how to write and listen to his song. Becoming a deaf musician, he found away to enjoy it anyway.

Zito

[t.dizzle]

Mozart is the King of Music. All of that is great. J.S. Bach is technically intense. Two incredible and awesome pieces of work to definitely check out -

Carmina Burana - Carl Orff (you'll probably recognize this)

Romeo and Juliet - Prokofiev (the first movement is my personal fav)

You will thank me for this.

[dshay]

Cats to definately check out on the banging beats tip....

Holst
Wagner
Mussorgsky
Stravinksy
Bartok
Tchaikovsky
Prokofiev
Berlioz

Orff's Carmina Burana is played out like Wagner's Ride Of The Valkyries.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by dshay

Orff's Carmina Burana is played out like Wagner's Ride Of The Valkyries.

Neither one of those is "played out" if you've never heard them before or didn't know what you were listening to if you did...

[khameln]

dizzle you check out prokofiev's 3rd piano concierto? Amazing.

[halfguard]

my mom made me play the piano for 10 years. all classical music, i hated it. funny thing is now i love it and every beat i make has this influence. actually, without it i have nothing. 10 years classical music piano+10 years dj= beatmaker i guess.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by halfguard

my mom made me play the piano for 10 years. all classical music, i hated it. funny thing is now i love it and every beat i make has this influence. actually, without it i have nothing. 10 years classical music piano+10 years dj= beatmaker i guess.

As a young kid I would take my little electronic piano and try to play everything I could by ear, including classical piano.

Im glad for that experience because years later down the road I can now play any melody that happens to pop into my head, and it adds tremendously to my production abilities.

I wish I could have taken formal piano lessons back then though, so I would be stronger on my abilities to write sheet music.

[violet]

ditto

[klaukholm]

Get a recording of the brahms cello sonatas maybe with Yo-Yo Ma.
That will show you both great use of the piano as well as the cello.
All of it is idiomatically written and is a good lesson in the use of the cello.

For violin get Sergiu Luca playing bach unaccompanied sonatas and partitas.

[mohthom]

TLMUSIC,

If you're purely looking to improve your knowledge of harmony and orchestration then listening to music like this will only tell you where you've gone wrong, and not how to make it right. You'll need to take classes or study music theory (particularly 19th Century Analysis) to some extent if you want to really make some headway.

That said, if you want to listen with harmony in mind, it's the old chestnuts . . .

Bach - chorales (371 chorales, Reimenschneider). Nice and short, but full of detail.

For more romantic stuff, I can't believe no-one's suggested Debussy. All the usual suspects. Especially the Piano Preludes.

Borodin - Symphony no. 2


If you want to improve orchestration, contemporary music is king . . .

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring
Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Peices (Farben, III being the best for that)

There's so many more. If you don't really understand harmony to begin with it can be useful studying Species Counterpoint.

What kind of level are you at at the minute?

MohThoM

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring
Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Peices (Farben, III being the best for that)
What kind of level are you at at the minute?

MohThoM

I do not quite agree. while their orchestrations sound good, things are not particularly idiomatically written. You can always spot composers who went right for stravinskys periferal range orchestrations and schoenbergs quirky pointilism and unidiomatic use of instruments.
These composers wrote music that is very work intensive in order to pull off a performance.

Like in physics it is best to follow the natural evolution of progress.
One is best off starting with some bach orchestral suites (no 2 comes to mind)

move on to the last mozart symphonies 39-41.
Haydn symphony 6 and 88
Beethoven string quartets

I would look to Mahler for innovative use of the orchestra and attention to detail including very helpful and supremely detailed instructions.

After all this I would approach the ravel, debussy, stravinsky, bartok.

For orchestration with voice look to Puccini

[boojum]

^^^^ He knows classical music!

[mohthom]

I have to absolutely disagree!!!!!

Having played the Rite of Spring (I was an Eb Clarinettist back in the day . . .), I can let you know that from the performer's standpoint that it's relatively straightforward (at least technically). The piece was written well idiomatically, and exploits easily achievable and incredibly impressive extended techniques in pretty much every section of the orchestra.

The bassoon solo at the beginning of the Rite (insert cliche here) is in a near impossible section of the instrument to play in, yet Stravinsky hand-selected the notes that were stable for the majority of players he'd worked with - it sounds tough, but it isn't too bad because it's very well written within the idiom of bassoon writing. It's the same for all the other Stravinsky music I've played; Soldiers Tale, Petrushka, Symphony of Psalms, Symphony in C, Firebird (orchestral version - the chamber is disgusting), the 3 Solo pieces, they've all been tough, but well written for the instrument. Speaking to fellow performers it seems to be the case across the board that all parts are musically difficult but relatively technically straightforward. There's often a trick in pieces that is particularly well idiomatically integrated (bassoon intro to Rite of Spring, oboe parts in Symphony in C, end of 2nd of the 3 solo pieces for clarinet) - in that it's technically near impossible unless you know the secret Stravinsky trick!

I guess my point is that relative to the technical demands placed on the performers the music is incredibly complex and effective, but the manner in which Stravinsky approached his part-writing eased this difficulty so that musical considerations could be more fully realised.

I think it's tough to say that Stravinsky isn't a master of texture. I'd understand if you said he's not a king of harmony (though I'm sure Robert Craft, Elmer Schoenberger and Lois Andriessen would disagree . . .), but his part writing is so masterful it's worth study just for that in my book!

I was fortunate to study with a 2nd generation Stravinsky player (my old instrumental teacher's teacher played for Stravinsky) and was informed of a number of these little fingering tricks etc.

As always, this is just from what I've learned from reading in books/journals and from playing the damn stuff - and I'm sure a string player may look upon the whole experience rather differently . . .

The Schoenberg I recommended as it's a great example of Klangfarbenmelodie - and the colours he manages to get out of a fairly simple orchestra are exquisite (without being too technically demanding) - I don't see how much better you're going to see orchestration executed. I do concede, however, that the OP may have wanted to know more about the constructs of harmony than its implementation in Twentieth Century orchestral repertoire . . .

On a more personal level, I think it's a bit off disregarding Stravinsky and Schoenberg as non-products of the Western Art-music tradition!

As always, YMMV!!!

MohThoM

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Having played the Rite of Spring (I was an Eb Clarinettist back in the day . . .), I can let you know that from the performer's standpoint that it's relatively straightforward (at least technically). The piece was written well idiomatically, and exploits easily achievable and incredibly impressive extended techniques in pretty much every section of the orchestra.

MohThoM

The Eb part is not beyond the call of duty although I have heard it slaugtered by capital city Eb players more than once, the basson part however...
Sit through an audition of couple of hundred bassoonists all with good schooling playing that part. It is highly challenging, and if it was not for the hundreds of hours all good bassoonists spend on those few bars in a lifetime, it would sound terrible.

Take a look at the double eigth notes in the bass parts in the dance of the earth at rehersal number 72.
Hardly idiomatic writing, crossing three and four strings in that tempo while maintaining tonal control is beyond the majority of professionals out there.
That entire section asks a lot of a string section.


This is not the right reportoire to build a basic understanding of orchestration.
Deb, rav and strav is the most demanding and advanced orchestration out there.
Like in any profession start with orchestration 101, not advanced orchestration 702.
As ingenious as debussy is, we just did afternoon of a faun the last cuple of nights with a first rate conductor, and I can tell you it is a very challenging orchestration to pull off from a perfomance standpoint. When it works there is nothing like it. When it doesn't there is nothing like it...

As for schoenberg, I love the first chamber symphony, but I think the brahms quintet arrangement is the worst and most inept use of certain instruments of any big name composer out there and I say that the morning after playing the bottom line to the string unisons in Nielsen 5.

[mohthom]

I understand where you're coming from with your comments, and think I might be assuming a fair amount of prior knowledge on the part of the OP. It's a weakness I know, but it's something I seem to do quite regularly. . .

I'll agree - the bow hand is kinda scrubbing at that point, but it's not like it's constant runs of unrelated notes - it's a single bar repeated 22 times (and more, after fig. 76). I'd argue that it's not actually so difficult anyhow - it all fits pretty well under then hand - and there's no massive leaps etc. It's not crossing three and four strings - it's using a total of three strings (the bottom string would not be used here) and the left hand could retain 3 of the 4 notes used in this section without too much of a problem (with just a small movement to provide the 4th note).

There's nothing worse than a bored orchestral player!

As the OP said . . .
I want to find good string music / violins / cello etc - to help me understand the instrument, it's various applications, the way it can be realistically played

I'm a big advocate of taking things to the extremes to figure out how they work and at what point they break - maybe that's why I've given such a hardcore example.

And . . . on a lighter note . . . this work WAS covered in Orchestration 101 when I did my UG!

I'll also apologise as it's absolutely certain that as a concert-goer I have been well spoiled - I live within spitting distance of 4 professional orchestras (one of which I would deem to be first class, who also specialise in contemporary repertoire . . . ) and a conservatoire, and I'm not too big a fan of 'old' music! As a result I tend to underestimate the difficulty of some music - but only because I see it performed so well so regularly.

Also . . . heartily agree on the Bartok - should be taken with food three times a day . . . .

MohThoM

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by mohthom

I'll agree - the bow hand is kinda scrubbing at that point, but it's not like it's constant runs of unrelated notes - it's a single bar repeated 22 times (and more, after fig. 76). I'd argue that it's not actually so difficult anyhow - it all fits pretty well under then hand - and there's no massive leaps etc. It's not crossing three and four strings - it's using a total of three strings (the bottom string would not be used here) and the left hand could retain 3 of the 4 notes used in this section without too much of a problem (with just a small movement to provide the 4th note).

MohThoM

You just proved my point. Unless you have exellent knowledge of the intruments you are writing for you would make the same assumption you just did.
If you choose to play that crossing three strings as you suggest you end up with a leap between the C and the E a tenth higher that is ca two feet long in a very fast tempo.
This part is so hard it doesn't even show up on auditions.

the original poster said:

Originally Posted by TLMUSIC

For example - i want to find good string music / violins / cello etc - to help me understand the instrument, it's various applications, the way it can be realistically played, harmonically as well as melodically etc etc

As for 101, we also covered quantum mechanics in a 100level survey course at Rice, but there is no way any of us came out of the class understanding it.
If you want to actually understand fully what is going on in these orchestrations you need to start at the beginning of western art music not the result of 500 years of development.

[mohthom]

Again, apologies . . . in my haste I didn't notice the bar you were making reference to.

Yup, that's tough . . . but ultimately possible, no? I've played a bit of double bass in my time and while that's certainly past my technical capabilities, I'm not paid £30k a year to play the double bass . . .

Klaukholm:
If you want to actually understand fully what is going on in these orchestrations you need to start at the beginning of western art music not the result of 500 years of development.

So your suggestion is to start with Perotinus and Hildegard von Bingen? Is that early enough? I guess my thought is that it's dangerous to disregard anything (for study purposes) because it's new and isn't tonal.

As you said (though I don't know that I agree), bassoonists spend hundreds of hours practicing those few bars . . . and while it may be the limit (Berio did write a bassoon sequenza, but I don't know it . . . ) it's still possible. It's more an exploration of texture and harmony than getting all of those notes perfectly in tune and even though surely?!!!! Well, maybe not for the Eb clarinet and picc player, but even so.

I'm of the opinion that professional performers are paid to play stuff that's difficult. It's like being a lawyer - anyone CAN read up on the legalese and bash go through the motions in court, it's knowing how to deal with it when the going gets tough that separates the good from the bad - the amateurs from the pros. I'm not going to play the game of 'let's find the most difficult piece imaginable that's been published' (probably some monstrosity by Schnittke ), but there are much more difficult things that are asked of performing musicians - and I'm NOT talking about Gruber (the humiliation!)!

By the way, I worked with a few guys from Malmo a while back (different line of work) and they were all an excellent laugh. Sounds like you're in a great city!

I'll add another work that's great for studying harmony etc. . . . Shostakovich 2nd Piano concerto.

MohThoM

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Again, apologies . . . in my haste I didn't notice the bar you were making reference to.

Yup, that's tough . . . but ultimately possible, no? I've played a bit of double bass in my time and while that's certainly past my technical capabilities, I'm not paid £30k a year to play the double bass . . .
MohThoM

Well I am paid that to play the bass and I have seen many a respectable colleague fall on their nose at #72.

This is a great city for music. Being a twin city with copenhagen there are 7 full time orchestras within a 30 some minute drive from where I live. Two of them are pretty small (50 some players only) but the others are full size 100 piece orchestras.

We are lucky enough to have the former chief conductor of moscow (currently first guest in the BBC phil, manchester) as our chief, and he makes it a joy to go to work.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by mohthom

As you said (though I don't know that I agree), bassoonists spend hundreds of hours practicing those few bars . . . and while it may be the limit (Berio did write a bassoon sequenza, but I don't know it . . . ) it's still possible. It's more an exploration of texture and harmony than getting all of those notes perfectly in tune and even though surely?!!!! Well, maybe not for the Eb clarinet and picc player, but even so.MohThoM

Rite is not the limit, but it is definately hard and out of the standard range.
If you write in that range you better know who will play it and think twice before you do it.

[brle]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

...but I think the brahms quintet arrangement is the worst and most inept use of certain instruments of any big name composer out there...

Well, it´s a quite exaggerated, Sch. orchestrated tons of music before this quintett, so instrumentation skills was not a problem for him. Quite on the contrary, i think it´s shining example of somebody excellent knowing Brahms style and translated it into modern orchestra.

sascha