Mixing/Mastering For Network Television Broadcast??

[lefthando]

Why don't you just ask the post house, or broadcast house what they would prefer?

In my experience as a music editor, the hotter the music mix (rms), the more likely the dub engineer will pull your music down. Uncompressed music will breathe more and the dub/mix engineer can just ride the fader under the dialog. Compressed music tends to be always making it's presence known and the mixers will just bury it to make their lives easier.

Don't forget, TV mixes get slammed pretty hard by their own mastering limiters, and then the broadcasters slam it again.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Lefthando:
In my experience as a music editor, the hotter the music mix (rms), the more likely the dub engineer will pull your music down. Uncompressed music will breathe more and the dub/mix engineer can just ride the fader under the dialog. Compressed music tends to be always making it's presence known and the mixers will just bury it to make their lives easier.

Don't forget, TV mixes get slammed pretty hard by their own mastering limiters, and then the broadcasters slam it again.

That makes so much sense.

I was all half-cocked ready to go remix the tracks with maximum crush. Now I feel like I don't need to bother with that. Wouldn't that be nice!

Thanks Lefthando.

I'll go ahead and see if the program director wants to put me in touch with the post house anyways.

[lefthando]

You know, I send a lot of music to TV mixes and I'm always amazed at what you can get away with. Unless it's the title theme, music tends to get mixed back pretty far, and quality is not as big an issue as you would expect. Lately, In this advanced world of instant on-line transfers, I've been required to send more and more Mp3's to the mix stage. Nobody ever notices or cares. When I go to the mix stage for playback, it sounds just great. Even to my critical ears.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by lefthando:
You know, I send a lot of music to TV mixes and I'm always amazed at what you can get away with. Unless it's the title theme, music tends to get mixed back pretty far, and quality is not as big an issue as you would expect. Lately, In this advanced world of instant on-line transfers, I've been required to send more and more Mp3's to the mix stage. Nobody ever notices or cares. When I go to the mix stage for playback, it sounds just great. Even to my critical ears.

Lefthando,

It's great to know that, and it just makes me want to do more TV stuff like this.

The Fraunhofer Institute mp3 encoder makes pretty darn good sounding mp3's, and they are a snap to make and email out.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise. It's cool to find out things are LESS complicated than you imagined, not more.

[lefthando]

Good luck with the show.

[Renie]

Great progress Eric

[Bob Olhsson]

Depends on what quality you're talking about. Leaving the peaks in will always sound better on the air after passing through the signal processing and lossy audio coding that are SOP in the field. What you might want to do is see if you can remix the music while watching the actual picture. That can easily kick the experience of the music to the viewer up several notches.

About the last thing anybody wants to use for video is a crushed music track intended to impress focus groups. You'll just get no balls and no volume.

[TinderArts]

Curve, for TV the digital levels should not exceed -10dBfs. -20dBfs is the reference for DigiBetas and broadcast servers. Anything past -10 will cause the broadcast limiters to go nuts.

Check your PMs.

[juniorhifikit]

Try to keep instruments in the vocal range out of the center. That's primarily where the dialog goes. Trumpet and sax solos up the middle always give me trouble when dealing with dialog. Maybe prepare stems just in case. Put questionable instruments on their own stem.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Bob Olhsson:
What you might want to do is see if you can remix the music while watching the actual picture. That can easily kick the experience of the music to the viewer up several notches.

Bob,

I'm not going to have that opportunity in this situation. It's a youth-oriented "reality" TV show, and they'll probably be (choosing from a CD of 10) songs on the fly and sticking them into the program. So unlike composing an underscore, I probably won't even know what they use until after it's been broadcast.

About the last thing anybody wants to use for video is a crushed music track intended to impress focus groups. You'll just get no balls and no volume.

OK, good. It's great to know that, and I'll keep that in mind for sending out mixes for TV producers from now on: Easy on the mixbus compression.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by TinderArts:
Curve, for TV the digital levels should not exceed -10dBfs. -20dBfs is the reference for DigiBetas and broadcast servers. Anything past -10 will cause the broadcast limiters to go nuts.

Tinder,

Can you explain how I can measure that in PTLE? Following Nika's advice I try to keep the levels from approaching the zero crossing too closely. Then there's my CD burner, which has less-than-pro level meters.

Check your PMs.

I did, and thanks again!

[Curve Dominant]

posted by juniorhifikit:
Try to keep instruments in the vocal range out of the center. That's primarily where the dialog goes. Trumpet and sax solos up the middle always give me trouble when dealing with dialog.

Junior,

Thanks for that bit of advice, I'll watch that. And it suggests maybe using a bit of the DUY Wide plug wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Maybe prepare stems just in case. Put questionable instruments on their own stem.

In this case it seems like stems are out of the question. They seem to want finished mixes of songs to stick into the programme.

[dave-G]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant
Junior,

Thanks for that bit of advice, I'll watch that. And it suggests maybe using a bit of the DUY Wide plug wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Be careful with that. I don't know what the DUY Wide plugin does to do its widening, but mono-compatibility is pretty important, as a huge number of people who see the show will be hearing your mix through a mono speaker built into the TV.

As for the tip about -10dBfs peaks, I would talk to the downstream post-house about what they want, in what format, etc.. Since this is not a straight layback -- not the only audio in the show -- there's going to be another mix stage before the level on the master tape is an issue.

Congrats!

-dave

[Curve Dominant]

posted by dave-G:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Curve Dominant
Junior,

Thanks for that bit of advice, I'll watch that. And it suggests maybe using a bit of the DUY Wide plug wouldn't be such a bad idea.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be careful with that. I don't know what the DUY Wide plugin does to do its widening, but mono-compatibility is pretty important, as a huge number of people who see the show will be hearing your mix through a mono speaker built into the TV.

Dave,

That's a good point. My first instinct tells me there is some phase voodoo involved with that effect. Which if abused could easily spell trouble for mono delivery. I think the immediate answer is to be conservative with the settings on an effect like that.

It's actually a very cool plugin, but if the panning on the mix is already wide, it easily sends the mix out of control. Used subtly, though, it can make the mix sound bigger, lusher, more full. Because it's moving things out a bit, the stuff in the middle breathes more.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant
Tinder,

Can you explain how I can measure that in PTLE? Following Nika's advice I try to keep the levels from approaching the zero crossing too closely. Then there's my CD burner, which has less-than-pro level meters.

It's difficult to measure levels in ProTools as they relate to the outside world, which is why a good set of analog VU meters and proper tones are essential. There may be a metering plugin that can aproximate this.

Since your material is only an element in the final mix and someone else will be determining it's final level, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just don't smash it too much and don't clip the output.

[Bob Olhsson]

I just checked and the free Bomb Factory Essential Meter Bridge set to -20 RMS corresponds reasonably well with my Dorrough meter which is what most post folks are using. I would also keep an eye on the free Bomb Factory correlation meter because mono compatibility is still a very big deal in film and TV.

[dr.sound]

Eric,
You have received some very good advice from the other posts. Let me say, keep your peaks to -10. If you are to get a lot of work for TV or Film then invest in 2 Dorrough meters. They are the standard reference like Bob said. Personally I don't trust the BF meters. Soon there will be another plug in meter that will be just what you need. As soon as I'm done beta testing it I will let you guys know. Not a fan of MP3's on the Dub Stage. I can hear it, and the processing that is done before air makes it even worse. As junoirhifikit pointed out, don't fill up the center too much, but don't go through a plug in such as wider. When it comes to scoring to picture, remember the instrumentation will make all the difference. As screaming guitar or horns in a soft dialog moment doesn't hack it. This is "if" you are scoring to a particular scene. If not just remember your levels and try to contact the Re-recording Mixer and ask how he/she liked your tracks and what you can do to improve it.
Good luck!

[Curve Dominant]

Thanks Marti!

[dr.sound]

Eric,
You're welcome!
In Philly, go here
http://www.audiopostphila.com/studios/
Give Scott Was a call. Tell him I sent you.
He's a very good guy!!

[Curve Dominant]

Marti,

What a small world this is.

A very good friend of mine owns a dance studio in that very same building Audio Post is in.

I'll give Scott a call this week, and send him your regards. Thanks for that tip.

[GearGuy]

For PT TDM users here is a great option:

http://www.tllabs.com/mastermeter.htm

[Bob Olhsson]

I found the FREE Bomb Factory meters to be more than adequate for somebody who is supplying music elements assuming peak indication is also available. Obviously it can't replace Dorroughs (or real Weston VU meters!) for setting final mix levels but it seems like overkill to suggest one absolutely needs to spend a couple hundred dollars or more for something better than this free plug-in. Another free RTAS alternative for Macs only is the PSP Vintage Meter which offers a peak light and adjustable ballistics.

[Rader Ranch]

the level guidelines offered here are all good (keeping in mind different networks have different specs)....IF you're the mixer for the whole show, but as the composer (and more specifically music mixer) you shouldn't tweak your levels relative to any broadcast spec at all imho....your only concern should be to make it sound as good as you can pre-any mastering process, with NO glitches (bad edits, song starts/ends chopped etc....i mean, you can imagine how some composers mixing skills are. what they hear in their head, their focus, can be very different from a full time mixer, and it's pretty amazing sometimes what they miss, can't hear, or think is unimportant or non-detrimental). i'd also bring up track labelling and cue sheets, but that only applies if you're providing a ton of cues for a whole show, scoring to pic.

just hope you can actually hear the damn cue at all in the final!

[dr.sound]

You guys (Bob and Rader) are right. I was thinking like a Re-Recording Mixer. Sorry. Like I said, as soon as I'm done Beta testing I will give you some feedback on a new plug in. In the mean time use the above examples to check your levels.
Good Luck,

[lefthando]

Originally posted by Rader Ranch
the level guidelines offered here are all good (keeping in mind different networks have different specs)....IF you're the mixer for the whole show, but as the composer (and more specifically music mixer) you shouldn't tweak your levels relative to any broadcast spec at all imho....your only concern should be to make it sound as good as you can pre-any mastering process, with NO glitches (bad edits, song starts/ends chopped etc....i mean, you can imagine how some composers mixing skills are. what they hear in their head, their focus, can be very different from a full time mixer, and it's pretty amazing sometimes what they miss, can't hear, or think is unimportant or non-detrimental). i'd also bring up track labelling and cue sheets, but that only applies if you're providing a ton of cues for a whole show, scoring to pic.

just hope you can actually hear the damn cue at all in the final!

Very well said, Rader!