Micing and Recording a Cello

[guitarbth]

So I'll be recording a Cello for an indie rock ballad... the vibe of the song is a roomy, raw acoustic thing... think Damien Rice. I'll be overdubbing the Cello once we get acoustic guitars down. I've only recorded Cello once and I just placed a LDC on a low mic stand about a foot off the floor and got decent results. How do you go about doing it? I've got a pair of SM81s, KSM44, AT4040, and SM57 at my disposal. Thanks in advance.

[Mr. Man]

I WAS going to say use a U47 about 1-2 feet away but with what you say you have to work with I'd have to say either KSM44 about 2 feet away with maybe the SM81 up close and personal.
I hope this helps. If you have the opportunity, rent a U47 and use it instead. It's sooo worth it.

[Allesmachine]

Hey,,

I'll qualify this by stating that I'm definitely not an expert on this, but I do have some insight.

How you mic a cello depends on the type of sound you want to come out of the record (seems obvious). The cello is a typically recorded in a classical context which means big room and stereo mic'ing. You might not have access to a big room, and you probably don't want that sound anyway.

I play viola in an indie folk/pop band, and we record my instrument in a drastically different way than a classical context would. You mentioned that it is a raw acoustic sound so I would try to capture proximity and transients. The cello is a bass instrument, but a lot of the excitement of the recorded cello lies in details where the bow "hits" the string. The bass frequencies are not the most critical part of capturing the sound for cello. You know your gear better than I and I have not used any of those mics in recording except the 57 (not a good choice for recording cello), so I won't make any definitive recommendations. I will say that your previous idea of an LDC a few feet away is not a bad one at all. Experiment with placement though, make sure your placement captures the raw element of the performance.

Of course the most important element of getting a good sound is the performance itself, and if the musician knows what s/he is doing, then it will be there. I will say that generally, a raw sound come from playing closer to the bridge rather than farther.

EDIT: one more thing to add, a lot of cellos (especially the less expensive ones) have a sound that varies greatly as you move around the instrument. Think of it as uneven frequency response with a mic polar pattern. So if you don't get a good sound the first time you set down the mic, move it around until you do!

[guitarbth]

Originally Posted by Allesmachine

Hey,,

I'll qualify this by stating that I'm definitely not an expert on this, but I do have some insight.

How you mic a cello depends on the type of sound you want to come out of the record (seems obvious). The cello is a typically recorded in a classical context which means big room and stereo mic'ing. You might not have access to a big room, and you probably don't want that sound anyway.

I play viola in an indie folk/pop band, and we record my instrument in a drastically different way than a classical context would. You mentioned that it is a raw acoustic sound so I would try to capture proximity and transients. The cello is a bass instrument, but a lot of the excitement of the recorded cello lies in details where the bow "hits" the string. The bass frequencies are not the most critical part of capturing the sound for cello. You know your gear better than I and I have not used any of those mics in recording except the 57 (not a good choice for recording cello), so I won't make any definitive recommendations. I will say that your previous idea of an LDC a few feet away is not a bad one at all. Experiment with placement though, make sure your placement captures the raw element of the performance.

Of course the most important element of getting a good sound is the performance itself, and if the musician knows what s/he is doing, then it will be there. I will say that generally, a raw sound come from playing closer to the bridge rather than farther.

EDIT: one more thing to add, a lot of cellos (especially the less expensive ones) have a sound that varies greatly as you move around the instrument. Think of it as uneven frequency response with a mic polar pattern. So if you don't get a good sound the first time you set down the mic, move it around until you do!

Thank you very much. This is the exact perspective I needed. It sounds like I should use the KSM44 about 1-2ft away focused near the bridge of the instrument. And use an SM81 directed at the bow... The musician I'm recording plays for the Nashville Symphony so we should be able to get a good performance. Thanks again.

[MATTI]

I can´t remember the origin of the picture.

Matti

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by MATTI

I can´t remember the origin of the picture.

great, thanks for that. i'll be recording cello, for a pop song, pretty soon here. very helpful thread and diagram.

[Rob King]

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.. I have recorded the cello many times. In the studio I usually go 2-3 ft from the center and I like to put up a stereo or XY just above an LDC at around 120 degrees and blend that it for a bit more stereo information. Here is a pic of the setup.



Live I go a bit further if it is a large space. In the second picture below I am around 4-5 feet back. For this I used my Gefell UM75 and the AKG C422.



Hope these can help someone a bit. Cheers

[PhilE]

This may be a little contraversial but if I were you I'd use whatever the richest of your LDC mics is and also use the 57 in the equation- it will sound mankey but might well be very useful in the mix- I often do this with aspects of acoustic music and an SDC (the 57 wont be as good but it really should give you the same presence option)
FWIW I'd have either a fet 47, a 414 or a GT TM6 with a 300b

[Allesmachine]

Rob King,

what pattern is that Kiwi set to? I just got one and I haven't had a chance to really try it out on anything yet. I read that the figure 8 does well for presence. Looks like it's in good company with that C422!

MATTI, what are the colors on that diagram? Is it high, mid, and low frequencies?

[Rob King]

Originally Posted by Allesmachine

Rob King,

what pattern is that Kiwi set to? I just got one and I haven't had a chance to really try it out on anything yet. I read that the figure 8 does well for presence. Looks like it's in good company with that C422!

MATTI, what are the colors on that diagram? Is it high, mid, and low frequencies?

I usually keep the KIWI in 1 notch from Cardiod to Omni or in Cardiod. The 422's are 2 notches from cardiod towards omni or in cardiod depending on the room, player and how I want it to fit in a song or a solo recording. I have a ton of Mic's and I have to say that The KIWI is one of the best values in a solidstate LDC. It is a fantastic microphone.

[Allesmachine]

Great to hear Rob,

It was great value to me no matter how good or bad it sounded because i got it on warehouse clearance with some buddies for $380!

[zimv20]

thanks for the setup pics!

i was planning on putting up these mics and seeing what worked best: dragonfly, ksm32, 414 eb.

my 414 is a little dark, so maybe i'll set that up out front and put the dragonfly over to the side a bit, according to the diagram where the the most freq's seem to be. all as a starting point, anyway.

[minus-sounds.com]

I am cellist. My cello is on the bright side.

I got fantastic, smooth sound with a Beyer M160 pointing at the point where the fingerboard ends, about a foot away.

I play many parts, that I layer and pan, and the M160 works great on this.

If your room is good try a fig-8 ribbon. Also wear headphones and with a mic on hand move around the instrument to find its sound. It may be more than one places. The back of the instrument also radiates a lot, as the sides like the top. A mic near the performers head will give a sound the performer hears.

[pan]

My Cello-teacher always pointed out that the Cello has the most resemblace and range to the human voice among the string instruments - I have never gone wrong with mics that compliment a voice. U47 is the pristine example for that case;-)

But as stated before: finding the sweet spot by moving the mic is essential - a good player that realizes this and "moves" the (close)mic like a good guitarist is great on rock-stuff.
As usual it's more about the player than the mic....

[fifthcircle]

I generally will position the microphone over the instrument. If you go lower to the ground, you'll get a more bass-heavy sound. Sometimes this is ok, but you'll get a sound that is closer to what you hear by going over the instrument. Adjusting how far over the instrument or how far in front will affect the bass/treble balance of the instrument. Obviously room and mic choice will dictate how you set up.

Here is a picture- I couldn't find many good ones in my files, but you kind of can get the idea. As you'll see, we are coming from over the music stand- relatively low, but still over the stand. The mic used is a Microtech M930 here. FWIW, the rest of the mics out there (and for players out of the frame), are a DPA 4011 on the viola, a KM140 on the flute and an SE Z3300A on the bass.

--Ben

[MATTI]

[QUOTE

MATTI, what are the colors on that diagram? Is it high, mid, and low frequencies?[/quote]

Click the pic the frequencies are written there but as you´d expect lower you go more red.
Also remember the picture is two dimensional...

Matti

[Nu-tra]

I take a small diaphragm omni condenser and I wrap the body in bubble wrap. I take the mic and put it through the hole that runs under the bridge piece so the head of the mic is pointing straight up about an inch under where the fret-less board neck starts. It sounds bad ass! Just make sure you don't stuff the mic through the bridge hole. Just wrap it enough

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

I take a small diaphragm omni condenser and I wrap the body in bubble wrap. I take the mic and put it through the hole that runs under the bridge piece so the head of the mic is pointing straight up about an inch under where the fret-less board neck starts. It sounds bad ass! Just make sure you don't stuff the mic through the bridge hole. Just wrap it enough

You may have a hard time finding players that would agree to that. It makes a much larger affect on the sound of the instrument than a bass. You muffle the top plate as well as the bridge with that.

However, there is a less obtrusive remedy- use a DPA 4061 with the little string mounts. Sounds fantastic if you want that really close sound (I generally prefer a more open sound, but if that is the sound you're looking for....) and it doesn't change the sound of the instrument at all.

Also, another thing to try are boundary microphones. They can be quite interesting. I've used a Sanken CUB-01 with pretty good results and by accident, I found that on a wood stage a DPA 4006 sitting on the ground also sounded very good (another way of making your own boundary mic).

--Ben

[Nu-tra]

Never had any problems with players. Whatever microphone voodoo that floats your boat is what I say.

[Allesmachine]

Yeah, I would be VERY nervous about putting a mic down there...

My brother's cello is a 20,000 instrument (not including the $6,000 bow!) he gets nervous even having a mic less than 2 feet away!

[Nu-tra]

Aww man we got a lot of nervous people around here. Man Y'all need a puff of shmindie and a coors light. LOL

Totally kidding.

[silent-sam]

Stick one of your larger diaphram condensers about 2 to 3 maybe more feet away....but actually go in there and bend over and find a sweet spot. This will get your nice developed LF

Next I would take one of those SM81s and wrap it in bubble wrap and stick it in the bridge of the cello as Nu-tra said.... This will get you a nice sound of the bow contacting the strings.... you know almost that nice sticky sound?

I did it with an earth works qtc-1 once and it worked great.

Also km84s sound pretty nice on cellos.

[peeder]

bumpage

I'm going to be recording a couple of cellists, one solo 20th Century modern and one accompanying a singer-songwriter, and so I hafta get my mic placements in order. Small room unfortunately but it's treated.

I figure with the solo cellist I will use the M149 as the primary mono about 2 feet away and 2 feet above the bow-to-string contact, the fathead2 blumlein pair maybe 4 feet away, and a spaced pair of oktavamod mk012s with TSR omni caps at the perimeter also 4 feet away. I'll phase correct the M149 by nudging it back in time and blend in the stereo mics to taste. I may also put some artificial verb in there (Altiverb) to compensate for my widdle roomie. If I need more string articulation on the pizzi's maybe I go up close with a KM184 (is that bridge mounting really kosher? Will the cellist kill me? I guess I need omni for that too?) or an MA-200.

The accompanist cello, if they play simultaneous, won't have all those mics and won't need them. In that case I think I might go AT4060 as the primary and the fatheads or modded Apex 205's in blumlein. The acoustic guitar will be taking the brights anyway in that arrangement.

So tell me where I've gone hopelessly wrong...

[mahler007]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I generally will position the microphone over the instrument. If you go lower to the ground, you'll get a more bass-heavy sound. Sometimes this is ok, but you'll get a sound that is closer to what you hear by going over the instrument. Adjusting how far over the instrument or how far in front will affect the bass/treble balance of the instrument. Obviously room and mic choice will dictate how you set up.

Here is a picture- I couldn't find many good ones in my files, but you kind of can get the idea. As you'll see, we are coming from over the music stand- relatively low, but still over the stand. The mic used is a Microtech M930 here. FWIW, the rest of the mics out there (and for players out of the frame), are a DPA 4011 on the viola, a KM140 on the flute and an SE Z3300A on the bass.

--Ben

I know that cellist! That's Nick Photinos!!
Is Mark Dresser the bass player? Hard to tell, but it could be

Cheers,
Andrew

[Chris Parsons]

AT4047 wins on a budget, or even if money isn't an issue. I got a great cello sound with that mic. What's funny is that I recorded the same cellist the next week in a different studio with a Tele U47 and it didn't sound nearly as good! BTW, the 4047 was in a great sounding live room, and the U47 was in a poorly/over treated room.

[gsqd]

A 47 would be just about the best thing to throw up as long as it's a great sounding cello. I personally would always put a 47 fairly close for rock 'n' pop - maybe 18" to 2ft away - and pretty level with the bridge/"f" holes and pointing at the same angle as the sound board. Then I'd experiment with the instrument and player to see if something like a ribbon of maybe even something like an SM-7 might be a nice compliment. Blend to taste!

GM