Between Octava and Schoeps - Good A B Mains SDC's

[mrsteaks]

The following is culled from another thread on this Forum:

"Originally Posted by JimboJ
I own both pairs of both the Audio-Technica AT4050 and the Peluso CEMC6.

I have had the Pelusos about six months and have found them to be excellent as omni flankers in orchestra or chamber orchestra recordings. I have had good results using them with the cardioid caps for spot-micing string sections or for spot-micing piano in chamber music. Would I rather have DPA or Schoeps mics for this? Of course! If you don't have that kind of spare change, though, the Pelusos are another good value. Perhaps others here can comment on whether there are better microphones that split the difference in price between Peluso and DPA/Schoeps.

- James

Perhaps we should start another topic, James, excellent idea. Right now I'm very caught up in trying to figure out how I'm going to afford a pair of Schoeps. I have a Royer SF12, but it is no where near as versatile as a pair of Schoeps would be. Your way of thinking parallels mine; an excellent pair of mics for the mains, and very good (and affordable) mics for other duties. I'm sure others would disagree, but I think this is a rational approach."

Folks, in your considered opinions, are there GOOD to EXCELLENT SDC's that cost (considerably) LESS than a CMC6-MK2 that would make good mains, as well as be versatile enough (read: selectable patterns) to use as spots or anything else? I'm sure this topic has been broached many times, and I apologize in advance for doing it yet again. I'm on the road to buying new mics to use as mains, and I want to explore all my options. Schoeps, as much as I "crave" them ("need 'em, want 'em, gotta have!") are likely beyond my reach.

Once again, thank you all in advance.

~~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[d_fu]

AKG 480s aren't all that bad (at least not as bad as some people think)... You could even get a pair of the old 460s off ebay and have 'em modified by Jim Williams. The exchangeable capsules are comparatively inexpensive (there are only cardiod, hyper, a free-field omni and a shotgun, no wide cardioid), as opposed to Neumann, where the KM 100 body is relatively cheap, but the capsules are expensive (with Schoeps, they are about the same).

The 460 was what I chose when I wanted mics with exchangeable capsules and couldn't afford Schoeps, 14 years ago. I used the diffuse field omni (now out of production) as my main AB mic for many years and still do sometimes.

Obviously, bargains on otherwise expensive mics are to be made on ebay, but there's always a risk. If you don't feel comfortable about it, stay away.

Audio Technica also makes a decent series of pencil mics with exchangeable capsules (4049, 4051, 4053), but I've not heard them myself.

Daniel

[mrsteaks]

Worth looking into, Daniel, thanks.

Anyone tried the Mojave MA-100 with the omni cap as a main - yet? Might be too new. Priced right smack in the middle of the Peluso/Schoeps range.

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mosrite]

If you are serious about recording in the long term then my advice would be to wait and save to get what you really want. I have only ever regretted buying 'the cheaper alternative' in the past.

If we were just talking about spots then perhaps you could cut costs, but we are talking about a main pair right?

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by mosrite

If you are serious about recording in the long term then my advice would be to wait and save to get what you really want. I have only ever regretted buying 'the cheaper alternative' in the past.

If we were just talking about spots then perhaps you could cut costs, but we are talking about a main pair right?

Sage advice, but in reality I don't do enough work to justify the cost of Schoeps. As a million other folks in this field have done, I'm exploring other alternatives, something that can get me close to the "Schoeps sound" but won't require selling my wife (not a bad idea, now that I think of it.....) or my house to obtain them.

And yes, we are talking about a main pair.

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I have only ever regretted buying 'the cheaper alternative' in the past.

Good point. I've never really regretted not buying Schoeps, I must say. But maybe that's only because I never tried any of their omnis...

[Plush]

I have been using the Shure KSM 137 mics for several years. They are a very good choice for a lower cost microphone. I would not hesitate to use these as a main pair any day.

Recently I was at Shure Bros. listening to various mics--some they made--some that they did not. I really was again impressed to hear the 137's in comparison to all the others that day. They sounded great.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

As a million other folks in this field have done, I'm exploring other alternatives, something that can get me close to the "Schoeps sound" but won't require selling my wife

Well, how about renting? (No, not your wife....the mics!)

There are a LOT of great sounding mics out there. You have to choose what you think sounds good and make it sound better with care and placement.

I spent years buying mics that were ALMOST as good as Schoeps and DPAs. Guess what I have? A closet of "almost mics" working now for spot mics on winds, horns and drum kits, and a handful of the real thing working for classical orchestra & jazz miking on a regular basis. It's worth the wait, and NOTHING else has the exact sound, and close just doesn't cut it. When my Earthworks, Gefells, Neumanns, Schoeps and DPAs are working, I rarely have a reason to want for more...unless its more of the same.

[matyas]

Originally Posted by mosrite

If you are serious about recording in the long term then my advice would be to wait and save to get what you really want. I have only ever regretted buying 'the cheaper alternative' in the past.

If we were just talking about spots then perhaps you could cut costs, but we are talking about a main pair right?

I have to say that I respectfully disagree with this philosophy. Of course I say this as someone who can't afford Schoeps (etc.) either, but if I had waited around until I could (which may be never, for all I know), I wouldn't have been able to do any of the recording I have done, and I never would have learned all the things I have about mic placement, etc. I think that gaining experience is at least as valuable as gear, and if you have the opportunity to buy something decent now, go make some recordings, train your ears, and learn something in the process. Then, save up and buy those Schoeps! At least, that's the attitude I've taken. I started out with a pair of Oktavas, a DA-30, and a cheapo preamp, but I've been slowly acquiring more and better gear. And I don't regret any of my purchases (except maybe the DA-30 - I think even in 2001 there were better-sounding options).

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I spent years buying mics that were ALMOST as good as Schoeps and DPAs. Guess what I have? A closet of "almost mics" working now for spot mics on winds, horns and drum kits, and a handful of the real thing working for classical orchestra & jazz miking on a regular basis. It's worth the wait, and NOTHING else has the exact sound, and close just doesn't cut it. When my Earthworks, Gefells, Neumanns, Schoeps and DPAs are working, I rarely have a reason to want for more...unless its more of the same.

Jim, I hear you, believe me. I agree, too. In fact I agree with what everyone has said here. There are "almosts" to everything, "not quites" as well. I've gotten good recordings with what I have now and have had in the past. Some have even verged on "great" (I said "verged"....). I'm on the "verge" of moving up - better clients, more work, and I would LIKE TO HAVE the Holy Grail, the Schoeps. Reality, tho - money. Of course, I can take the risk, make payments (The American Way)....

Any other opinions?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[RichS]

While waiting for Schoeps is a noble idea, it might not be a practical one. There's a lot of high quality recordings (and money) to be made while you save-up enough.

May I suggest a matched pair ($630 for the pair) of the new Rode NT55 SDC mics. They include both omni and cardioid capsules, and have 3-position pad and 3-position LF cut switches. I've seen good reviews and the build quality is solid. They'll make a fine set of mains and an excellent/versitile set of spots or out-riggers when you can afford to move up.

Yea, buying "high-end" really is the right thing to do, but sometimes you just have to be realistic about money.

[classicalrecord]

as far as exchangeable capsules i think that the mid-range of quality is probably the audio-technica or the peluso's... i recently acquired a pair of schoeps (after years of buying nice, but not quite mics) and, well, there's definitely a difference. but as someone else said, you can still make great recordings with less expensive mics and the two options i mentioned seem to fit your needs best... at least try to audition them both. anyway, good luck.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Well, how about renting? (No, not your wife....the mics!)

Jim - she's for rent - she's from East Meadow !!! Of course, if she knew I said that, well....

I'd love to rent some mics - nothing close by, tho. I have access to Nuemann U-87's, Sony C-48's, Peluso CEMC6, AKG 414, but no Schoeps. No high end Earthworks, DPA's, or Gefell's, either.

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by classicalrecord

as far as exchangeable capsules i think that the mid-range of quality is probably the audio-technica or the peluso's... i recently acquired a pair of schoeps (after years of buying nice, but not quite mics) and, well, there's definitely a difference. but as someone else said, you can still make great recordings with less expensive mics and the two options i mentioned seem to fit your needs best... at least try to audition them both. anyway, good luck.

The Peluso's I had a chance to use last weekend. I did like them! However, the program material and the room weren't great, so it wasn't much of an audition. I have to tell you I was spooked about the Peluso's, because one of dealers who posts on here chimed in on another thread claiming they were as good as the Schoeps for less money. And a Hyundai is as good as a Lexus. Both nice, one is exceptional.

My ears are open, please keep the suggestions (and admonishments) coming!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[liuto]

Hi, Mark
many years ago, when I was a student, Neumann sold off its KM84 for good prices and I was lucky to pick a pair of them. They have always since been my main pair. Later I began to get interested in other, maybe better microphones, especially the Schoeps modular system. I tried out lots of different affordable brands and was always disappointed. Then I made up my mind to look for a used pair of Schoeps CMC5 with MK4 and finally grabbed one for about half the price of a new one. Price is an important factor for me as I am not making my living with recording but as teacher and musician. In the meantime I added a second pair (used) and some more capsules. I feel they are an improvement over my KM84 (which are great spots), at least as main microphones. I also have two pairs of Oktava MK012 which I like and sometimes use as spots. But in the end I use Schoeps for anything critical. Long story short, look for a pair of used Schoeps from reliable sources, maybe some fellow gearslutz. They pop up now and then in the classifieds. There may be some risc left, but the price would maybe not be much more than a pair of other new microphones like AKG480, MBHO and similar.
Best regards
Hermann

[mrsteaks]

Hi, Hermann -

Like you, I don't make my living with my gear, I'm a commercial pilot by trade. So, it's hard to justify such expense for tools I don't use every day. But, from a musical standpoint, it's hard to justify NOT using them. I'd jump on a used pair, if I could find them. In fact, Wes Dooley says on his site that he has four MK41's available from his collection. Call him, it says! Trouble is, those are cardioid, and I'd need the MK2(S).

Mike over at TTL was kind enough to send me a CD of recordings he did using Schoeps MK2S and Earthworks QTC1. The Earthworks were shockingly good, but the smooth way the Schoeps rendered the sound was just seductive. In reality, I could certainly live with the quality of recordings I could get using the Earthworks, they are extemely good microphones. However - however - you long time slutz are right, the Schoeps are a league unto themselves, and they are worth the expense. If one can afford them.

Oh - if I seem like I'm in a hurry, well, sort of. I've got a music festival coming up in less than a month and I'd like to be, well, ready. My wallet says otherwise!

I'll let you all know what I do.

Thanks to you all!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mosrite]

I'm a commercial pilot by trade.

And you're worried about spending extra on Schoeps???

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by mosrite

And you're worried about spending extra on Schoeps???

Yesssss.tutt

This is not Europe. I'm a helicopter pilot, not airline. I'm paid better than the regional carrier drivers, but I don't make what the guys flying the big iron for the majors do. It's a decent living, not a spendy one.

My hearing is fine, thanks for asking!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[minus-sounds.com]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

... In reality, I could certainly live with the quality of recordings I could get using the Earthworks, they are extemely good microphones. ...

Avenson Audio
Look at the Avenson omnis too, then.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by minus-sounds.com

Avenson Audio
Look at the Avenson omnis too, then.

They look interesting, although the noise figure seems a little high. Are they $550 each, or the pair?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

They look interesting, although the noise figure seems a little high. Are they $550 each, or the pair?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

Per Pair.

I've also had people say some Earthworks noise level is too high, but I have found that a combination of engineering choices (placement, proximity, direction) has a huge effect on what we can achieve...and the noise floor has never been an issue for me.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Per Pair.

I've also had people say some Earthworks noise level is too high, but I have found that a combination of engineering choices (placement, proximity, direction) has a huge effect on what we can achieve...and the noise floor has never been an issue for me.

Are you familiar with the Avenson's, Jim?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[stirinthesauce]

The Avensons are really nice, great bang for the buck. Wish I never sold mine. Noise was not an issue for me either. As for the talk of the Peluso cemc6, I owned a pair with all the caps for around a year. They did not sound anything like Schoeps, but were very good nonetheless. Very flexible with the variety of cap options, stellar price point. I used the subcards as my flanking pair in a not so ideal room for a student orchestra once last year and was very pleased witht the results. Been half tempted just to pick up a pair of bodies and those caps again. Doubt I will though. An alternative for the km184 or gefell 300 (if considering a cardiod main pair of budget sd's) I would consider checking out the beyer mc930's. They can be had new for under a grand, and sound fantastic. Very smooth throughout the spectrum, unhyped, pleasing to listen to mic. I've been more and more happy with these the longer I own them.

-Jon

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Are you familiar with the Avenson's, Jim?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

I have heard them and like what I heard, but don't own them. I have nine matched pairs of Earthworks, plus many others...ergo don't have the need for Avensons.

[mrsteaks]

Okay, the obvious question. How do the Avensons stack up against EW QTC30's (or any of them)? They look similar, except smaller. I have Naiant MSH-1's. Not bad, but NOT mains (obviously). Are the Avensons good enough to use for mains?

I shoulda asked this stuff at the AES in SFO rather than schmoozing with David Royer....

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I have nine matched pairs of Earthworks, plus many others...ergo don't have the need for Avensons.

No wonder you went to FeeBay to look for my SR-71's!!

Do they sound similar to EW's, in your opinion?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mrsteaks]

I'm sure you have all seen this:

eBay: Schoeps CMC5 U Microphone MK Series Capsule (item 300121522429 end time Jun-21-07 18:58:32 PDT)

There is another one on there, too. Just popped up. They should go for how much?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[mrsteaks]

Well, thanks to you all for the enlightening discussion. The gist of which is "there ain't no substitute". I will be holding out for the day when I can afford a pair of Schoeps!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[liuto]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

I'm sure you have all seen this:

eBay: Schoeps CMC5 U Microphone MK Series Capsule (item 300121522429 end time Jun-21-07 18:58:32 PDT)

There is another one on there, too. Just popped up. They should go for how much?

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

I am not sure if this is really an MK4. The seller says MK4 series but it could also be MK4s (low cut cardioid). It cannot be identified from the photo. I think it will go for about 800$.
Best regards
Hermann

[d_fu]

Guess I'll be the spoilsport by saying that I don't think Schoepses are the ultimate mics to save your money on... At least as far as I am concerned, if I really were to save on some "ultimate" kind of mic, it would be a pair of TLM 50s or maybe DPA 4041 or some Sonodores... Good recordings can be made without Schoeps...