Recording HORNS tommorrow - advice ???

[danocaster]

I'm producing a record for a singer / songwriter from New Orleans who is actually really amazing at Trumpet / Sax

We're gonna do a bunch of horn stuff tommorrow and Thurs and I have never recorded real horns so I would appreciate any advice

we'll probably do some typical horn section type things but we also wann try ambient tape dealy, muted trumpet lines - sorta experimental

He pulled out his horn and even thru the mics we were using for acoustic guitar it was pretty cool. How often do you get a killer horn player BUILT IN to a singer ?? I think this could be pretty cool but would love to hear from someone w/ experience mic'ing horns - as I have none ( until tommorrow !! )

I have Neve , API , and TAB V78 pres - 1176,Distresor , and DBX 160XT compressors

Mic selection could be Royer 121, Peluso U47, AT 4033, Cad VX2, 421, 57

please chime in if you have any experience !!

[Improv]

trumpet... no brainer... Royer 121. You'll get great results with any pre. I tend to gravitate to API for horns but Neve or Tab could be nice too. I like it as is, but if you need a little more brightness, turn the mic around and flip the polarity on your pre.

sax... depends on the situation almost as much as a human voice. For starters, 121/api might work, but U47/Neve might be better. Or vice versa. Either mic I'd put about 2-3 feet away about 45 degrees angle facing halfway up the body of the sax. Also, don't disregard the 421 here... can be great pointed right at the bell. This is very Horn/Room/Song/Style-variable stuff here. Personally, I shoot for the combination that gives a warm, smooth sound without sounding muffled. But I generally hate sax, so that's me. Don't get me started on sopranos... yer on yer own if you gotta go there.

As far as dynamics, I'd go for as little as possible while tracking. The trumpet will likely need some Distressor love to sit well with the sax in the mix (transient-wise), but it's hard to say until you hear them together. Seeing as one guy is doing it all, you won't have this luxury, so if you can hold off on the character compression until the mix, I think you'll less likely paint yourself into a dynamic corner, innit. It's when you get 3-4 guys in a room at the same time that you can really dial in dynamics appropriately while tracking. Regardless, the horns as a group will likely need compression at mixdown, so don't stress dynamics too much while tracking.

Good luck and have fun! I love horn sessions... always a blast... when they have charts. . .

[drBill]

Good advice. I'd start with the 121 as well. The Peluso may be a better call for sax. Of course you'll have to experiment. Play with the 121 distance from the trumpet bell. I'd probably go pretty close for section parts. On section parts like it ws said before, don't disregard the 421. I probably wouldn't use it for a lead solo sound, but especially for section stuff it could be just the ticket. Most of all.....have fun!

[swankdoc]

all the above = good advice (of course).
Id just add...let the horns set up pretty close to each other if they're playing hits together. Horn players typically really like /need to hear each other to get a tight intonation. If you isolate them too much, they can have probs getting good pitch. (even excellent players). I have had best results with one ear piece cans if they need them so they can hear themselves and the guys next to them more naturally and the way they're used to hearing themselves. Shoulder to shoulder / hearing the natural room. ie as always best recording results are when the players are comfortable, hearing and hitting well. So let them use their real ears if possible. Think of the old photos with the horn guys all standing right next to each other pointed at an RCA, goofing around.
My fav go to sax chain has been RE20 > preamps like tele V72 / focusrite Red / valley people transamp. I tend to not like compressor in for sax. Also, just like mentioned above, remember to not just have the player put the bell right up to and over the mic. The mic pointed halfway between bell and body gives great balance. Best sax I ever got was with a pair of KM54's, one looking down the bell, one at the body. Oh man.

[Tim Farrant]

Ditto to all of the above.

The easiest mistake to make is micing too close, you need to hear all of the horn. For example, for a sax, you need to get a balance of the reed versus bell versus holes - sound comes out of all those places.

[cajonezzz]

Yeah.

put an old carpet under the trumpet and trombone player for when the empty their spit valves.

sicko's.

[dementedchord]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

Yeah.

put an old carpet under the trumpet and trombone player for when the empty their spit valves.

sicko's.

not that it matters much... but it's not spit... just condensation from breath...

[billgennaro]

i repaired trumpets for the longest time some years back and if that stuff ain't spit i don't know what is. disgusting, vile stuff. glad i'm not in that kind of work anymore.

bill

[DSMrehearsal]

ROYER into the v78 with trumpet around 2/3 away - magic

[freestyle tromb]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

not that it matters much... but it's not spit... just condensation from breath...

the "tromb" in my username stands for trombonist. trust me, it's spit. ;D

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

not that it matters much... but it's not spit... just condensation from breath...

Yeah, that's what they all say...

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by drBill

Good advice. I'd start with the 121 as well. The Peluso may be a better call for sax. Of course you'll have to experiment. Play with the 121 distance from the trumpet bell. I'd probably go pretty close for section parts. On section parts like it ws said before, don't disregard the 421. I probably wouldn't use it for a lead solo sound, but especially for section stuff it could be just the ticket. Most of all.....have fun!

For some reason the 2247 is not so great on sax or trumpet, its alittle too mid forward.
If its the le maybe thats different but I woulsnt know since I only have a regular 2247.
I think the 121 is going to get you where you want to go

[DavidKakon]

SM7 + DAV BG-1

[Ahellam]

you can use pretty much anything, and get great horn sound as long as the player knows how to controll his instrument.
whatever you do, dont run the preamps gain too hot.

[Cornvalley]

Hey it's not a 'spit' valve but a 'condensation' valve.

[robot gigante]

I've had some good luck with the Distressors' 1:1 on getting some lame horns to sit in the mix better (wish it was me that had tracked them). Wouldn't track with them though, but they might help come mix time.

I'd use the Royers for sure. Haven't tried the TAB 78 for horns though I have used it for other stuff and I think it would be a good fit just so long as you make sure you have enough headroom so they don't distort (unless you want that sound...). The Neves are a no-brainer otherwise.

[Dan]

So if you believe it's condensation, put a cup by the horn players, and have them empty their "condensation" valves into it. At the end of the session, have yourself a cool refreshing drink!



but yeah, you pretty much got your answer in the first few posts.

[pigpen]

Earplugs...I hate horns, they are too damned loud

[dementedchord]

Originally Posted by freestyle tromb

the "tromb" in my username stands for trombonist. trust me, it's spit. ;D

cool glad someone still plays the thing... but i'm also talking from experience... airforce band kept me outta viet nam.... was a performance major in colledge till auto accedent tore my lip.... studdied with principal of st louis symph.... if your spitting into the thing your not doing it right IMO...

[Sigma]

trpt beyer 160 or 77/77dx

bones u 47 fet

saxes 77dx or u 87

classic set up

[gurubuzz]

I remember reading, I think Al Schmit, that miking the horns from behind them sounds great.

ie: the players backs facing the mic.