Dub music...

[Jay Kahrs]

Is there anyone in here who works on dub music? Right now I need some ideas. There's a song that one of bands cut that well...is a little disjointed drum wise with dropped beats on the hats and stuff. We've decided to give it the dub treatment so I need some ideas to get started. Well, besides liberal spoonfuls of delay.

[Meriphew]

Lot's of good info/tips here:
http://www.interruptor.ch/dub.shtml

[concentric]

Smoke a fatty and bang those spring reverb tanks, mon.

Do you have a Space Echo?



JCM

[XHipHop]

One cool trick i like to do is delay a guitar upstroke...print the delay and then get rid of the original. Just play around with that for a few different sounds and you'll have some cool dub filler.

[alphajerk]

dont forget the ring modulator on the snare.

[SureShotStudio]

there's a altiverb spring delay impulse response on fokke van de saan his website that goes "sproing" if you put a snare through it. you can convert it to .wav (for sir or ir-1) by importing it as a raw audio file. very nice if you add some saturation effect to it.

[initialsBB]

If the track has no vocals record some and if it already has vocals record some totally different vocals or background vocals. Then add these really low in the mix as though you're doing a version using the rhythm track of another song. This may not make any sense if you haven't listened to much dub but hopefully you'll get what I'm saying.

Throw in the sound of one of those little toys that goes "moo" when you turn it upside down (Lee Perry) or add a track of running water. Add that submarine depth charge beep sound (Scientist).

Leave lots of space, build up a nice warm blanket of tape hiss, bounce tracks down several generations, feed effect sends back into themselves, let things distort, etc.

Whatever you choose to do (adding effects or whatever) do way too much of it. Then add some more

[danny]

the sonar beep is probably the tone generator on Tubby's API console.

[matucha]

turn the bass and drums (mostly bd) up, bass has to dominate.

[DeadPoet]

Try the Ohmboyz plugin from Ohmforce... Dub-a-licious !

[syncro]

Greetings Jay,

drop me an email, I'm into dub and reggae for some years. Look at my homepage...

Basically turn up the bass, use some weird effects on drums and skanks - vintage sounding phasers, tape echoes, spring reverbs and their combinations. Let the vocal emerge for a moment and fade it out in endless echo, etc. Listen to some dubs to get an idea...

One love, Alexandr.

GunJah Studio
www.gunjah.cz

[ttauri]

I think the key to dub is resisting the temptation to build up too much. It's like: drum, bass, and then the rest is spice that you throw on, but don't leave for too long. Your average song tends to have a direction it's going in, stuff it's building toward (say, a chorus for instance); dub's more meandering and diffuse.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Jules]

I worked with a dub meister on a few tracks. (Dennis Bovell)

He said instead of twisting aux pots to 'bang' shit off to the delays, they would simply take the patch chord for the delay unit input and jam it in various patchbay 'holes' to dub and yank em out.

We did some 12'' work one long night and he did this 'live dub patching' (fun) and he made me mic up some folks drilling through the wall next door and we dubbed THAT and blended it in - a sort of "construction dub" vibe!

I also engineered some Lee Scratch Perry stuff while Adrian Sherwood 'dubbed it up'. But he used the sends 'knob twist' method...

From what I can gather the best way to procede is to have the dub crew, vibed up and "showing off" to either themselves or a control room audience... (the best way I can describe it) with all hands on deck and just roll tape to capture whatever happens and edit it all together later..

I feel it VERY MUCH to be a performance art.

So perform!

[toledo3]

Jules is right..... and the more out there you get, the better.

Like... hard edit type of things.... try running the entire mix through extreme chains for just a few bars. You could mix to tape, and **** with the tape speed oscillator.... or even cut the tape as it is running across the heads.... just edit that stuff back into the digital mix. Reamp the mix, put it through a wah or filter...

Also, inserting random noise is pretty common. It is cool to contruct a noise tape, using nature sounds, tv stuff, etc.... and just flip the tape so it is all playing backwards. Patch that into the board and bring up the fader whenever you want.

Serendipity is the name of the game.

[7rojo7]

did someone say Posse.
1/4 note triplet and straight 1/8 note delays are essential. between those two you can feed them back and forth even to themselves (do the number of repeats from the console, not on the delay unit, more options from one box) to get the basic feel.
I like to get my sends onto faders and mute buttons (you can end up wid lots'o'dem every fader sends to its'self and to other sends, you can use the in/out buttons as well as the twist and shout method) you can mess with the eq and always have the option to send an effect to another effect or back'to'its'self. channel feedback (instant saturation) and mistake sounds work too.(lotsapatches mults and faders for different cross sends)
if you can edit pieces of various takes together you don't have to worry about the trad style mix, continuity is not the issue. just go for it. space'is'da'place. spliff'is'da'word for a hard kriss. yahcan'* mess'id'up unless you'is'a bumbaclodt. after you edit a sparse mix together get percussion, guitar solo, an MC, jazzwhatever to play over the top, then mix one of them in whenever you feel something is missing (you can even duck the main mix and do a voyage on the other planet surprise or mysterious) always using the effect matrix to give it that dreamy not from this planet vibe. otherwise you can use prerecorded stuff like rap productions. Since it's not Dub that you're doing why be limited to a dub production, do whatever you need to to make it a great production.
Old harmonizers and flangers from Eventide and effect boxes from MuTron make some great space when they're abused, even when no signal is applied.
Start straight up though.

[grahluk]

Jules,
We don't have that bowing, I'm not worthy emoticon to post so I'll just have to say big up to you. You've got to work with the patron saints of dub. I've been a longtime fan of Dennis Bovell and his horn arrangments/dubs in particular. His band had some crazy horn lines that would sound like tape speeding up and slowing down but were played. That on top of the dub. He's a great dub technician. Much respect to Adrian Sherwood as well. I've a couple On-U Sound Discs that I use to evaluate/punish a studios playback system. You really hit the head about Dub being a performance art. In these days of micro edited mix automation nightmares vibing a mix is not so much the modus operandi.
With that in mind what you can now do the tricks and techniques of the dub classics are crude and simple by comparison. If you want to do a modern dub try this. Get yourself a static mix. i.e. edit, fix, eq, any problems between mix elements and get a general good sounding rough. Then dim the lights, consume whatever attitude adjusters suit you, and just "play" your mixes. If you would liken a traditional pop mix to european orchestral composing dub mixing is more like improvisational jazz. Know the principals but plan nothing. If you're doing it alone build your automation in performance passes and record your results. Save, modify, expand. You will find that you'll end up with versions going in many different directions. Later you can sift through them noting what works and what makes you think "what was I on?" Comp and edit for the final versions. Like playing music the above is more fun and has potentially more interesting results if you have company. Invite other mixers, assistants, or musicians to get in on it. Let them "play" their own or other parts iin the mix.

P.S.
I've a guitar player friend (Earl "chinna" Smith) who's played on a lot of dub records. He's played on a lot of Jamacain records period. I would always try and pry anecdotes out of him about sessions he's been on. If you're going for particular dub sounds of yesteryear the Mutron biphase and Roland space Echo will get you a long ways. Also an old Soundcraft 16x8x2 board will bring a lot of mojo to the table. I had one once much like the one pictured in Lee Perry's Black Ark days. Man that thing was thick sounding. Not in the same class as your top shelf Neve or api but it had some character. I liked to think of it as 16 channel, 8 bus stomp box. And to think I traded it towards a Mackie 8 bus in the early 90's. I wish I had one now as a sidecar for fun.

[danny]

Great thread!

I knew Chinna Smith back in the day too: great guitarist and gentleman.

Scratch Perry records can be very murky, but he actually turned that to his advantage, usually.

But I love the fact that Tubby's studio used an API. To me, it pretty much disproves all the nonsense about "color" and "warmth" being antithetical to accuracy and transparency. Tubby (and those who used his room, such as Scientist and Jammy) made their own vibe. They didn't need tubes or Fatso's or Fairchilds to make some of the most vibe-soaked and richly weird/warm disks ever.

The patchbay-dubbing thing is interesting. On King Tubby records, though, it does sound like he's sending from a fader (not a knob or pb). Sometimes, it really seems impossible, the amount of stuff going on simultaneously.... Tubby was either a hydra or occasionally used assistants..

[Jay Kahrs]

Lots of good stuff so far. Thanks.

The song is a fairly straight up surf pseudo-punk kinda thing. The main problem is that the guitars were sloppy as hell and the drummer dropped a few beats here and there, but he was playing 8th's at about 160 bpm. We ment to go back and recut it but well...it just never happened.

There are vocals through the whole song, ranging from a walkie-talkie vibe for the intro to doubled screaming...the dude sounds like a cross between Fred Schider (B52's) & Iggy Pop. We also have a muted trumpet on the chourses that NOBODY except for the bass player likes. It sounds like a wounded duck...gotta do something with that.

I'll try to post an MP3 of it next week. Like, as a before dub treatment thing.

I don't have a Space Echo handy but there is an Effectron II and a Korg SDD-2000 in the rack among a few other delays. I also have a whole bunch of stompboxes around. Tracked to 2" tape...there's a Studer 1/4" deck sitting right next to it for tape slap....hmmmm...

now taking off on runway number one...

[Jules]

Put a tear of masking tape on the sends above the delay returns that will cause - feedback to those delays.... you will appreciate the visual reference help in the heat of the dub run..

Then when the mood takes you - Bang some shit into a delay - then quickly with your hand on the fader to control volume of the delay return, TWIST UP THE SEND TO IT'SELF and let it freak out a bit (a lot!) totally distort even HOWEVER MIXED in nicely with your hand on the delay return fader. then back it off just in time to twist the snare off into an explosion reverb to kinda 'round it off'

HIN A RRRRRRRUB A DUB STYLEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Jules
Put a tear of masking tape on the sends above the delay returns that will cause - feedback to those delays.... you will appreciate the visual reference help in the heat of the dub run..

What's so bad about delay feedback? I mean, it is dub afterall.

Actually, when I do FOH gigs I keep the feedback on the delay units really low. If I need more repeats I turn up the aux on the return channel and send the delay back into it's self.

[initialsBB]

So how did the mix go?

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
What's so bad about delay feedback? I mean, it is dub afterall.

Exactly.

When I work on Dub Style music, it helps me to think about the birth of the music, which techinically kinda happened by accident when mastering (the term "Dub Plates" comes to mind). People were printing extended bass and drums sections with massive echo throws to get their mastering levels right. These one off's (litterally one of a kind extended remixes in a way) were well sought after for the Selector's or DJ's with sound systems.

When I think about the roots, and the innovation that went down at the time, it helps me think "what would they do today to push the music forward?".

[Jay Kahrs]

Qball, I'm kinda glad that you'r 2666th post is in my forum
thumbsup

Anyway, fill me in and learn me sumthing...why would they be doing long echo throws in mastering? How would that be used to set levels?

BTW, I haven't done the mix yet. Maybe Wednesday or Thursday this week. I'm doing it as a 'favor' off the clock thing for the client so I'm gonna do it whenever I have a couple of free hours.

[danny]

Anyway, fill me in and learn me sumthing...why would they be doing long echo throws in mastering? How would that be used to set levels?

errr, this doesn't make any sense at all.

[Jules]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jules
Put a tear of masking tape on the sends above the delay returns that will cause - feedback to those delays.... you will appreciate the visual reference help in the heat of the dub run..
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What's so bad about delay feedback? I mean, it is dub afterall."

Nothing!

Oviously delay feedback is a key element to Dub music.

The masking tape markers I suggest on the sends above the delay returns are to help you CAUSE (read - MAKE / CREATE) feedback whenever you WANT. They can act as handy 'go to' visual aids while on dub runs....

Got it?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by e-cue
...When I think about the roots, and the innovation that went down at the time, it helps me think "what would they do today to push the music forward?".

One thing's absolutely for sure. I can't picture anybody making an inspiring dub mix inside of a box!

Grandmaster Flash was the next (and in my opinion the last) giant step. Hopefully there'll be another one after people get over the intoxicating head trips of both using computers and of using vintage gear. Nobody can really sound convincingly like anything but themselves. As the technical possibility of sounding like others has increased, it seems like the amount of truly convincing, exciting new music has decreased.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Anyway, fill me in and learn me sumthing...why would they be doing long echo throws in mastering? How would that be used to set levels?

Intrigued as well.

I was listening to some Sam Cooke a few weeks back, tho, vocal just swimming in reverb (and GORGEOUS reverb, I must say), when it struck me that if you were influenced by that sound and trying to replicate it, it wouldn't be too hard to accidentally overdo it in setup and be like, hey that sounds good. That's been my recent dub hypothesis.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Anyway, fill me in and learn me sumthing...why would they be doing long echo throws in mastering? How would that be used to set levels?

They wouldn't do the echo throws IN mastering, but during the mixing process as a test version for mastering to vinyl.

As I understand it, extended versions we're used to get levels for preparing the dub plates to make vinyl. I'm not an ME, and especially one of that time era and I've never made a piece of vinyl. I don't know. Any M.E.'s care to shed light on this?

These versions became popular in the dance halls because they were one of a kinds (basically test ref's) and if you were a DJ that had one, you were the shiznit. It became popular to play these extended "versions" (I have several old ska and reggae 45's that's B side instrumentalish/dub just say the word "version" on them) and they began to make it to the B side's of records.

licka-shot bomp-bomp

Anyway, I look to the old for the new. It helps me to find direction by asking myself "What would King Tubby do?", just like if I'm working on a rock project I ask myself "What would George Martin do?", in a modern sence of the question.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
As the technical possibility of sounding like others has increased, it seems like the amount of truly convincing, exciting new music has decreased.

I thought the Southern "screw" music scene was pretty amazing for a lil while. (For those that don't know: the mostly-Houston-based hip-hop mixtape phenomenon originated by DJ Screw where everything is played slooooooowed down.)

Got a big rush the first time I heard it. A whole lot of people operating on a very different sonic template.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[e-cue]

Well... dub lead to dancehall which lead to jungle, right?