Orchestra recording - To EQ or not to EQ?

[pschneider]

Hi,

I'm about to finish a live classical orchestra recording I've been working on for a while (mainly trying to cover up cracked trumpet notes from another recording by the same orchestra). I've only recorded chamber music and small groups so far; this is my first big orchestra job.

I started out using EQ on the individual tracks (main AB pair, ORTF pair on the woodwinds, omni outriggers). However, after toying with the mix, I finally gave up any eq'ing because the result sounded so much fuller and more natural. I felt that instead of just making the higher frequencies clearer or brighter - which seemed to sound nice on the woodwinds - the violins started to sound brittle and the whole recording lacked any of the warmth of the original performance.

Would any of you be interested in listening to an excerpt of the recording to help me decide if it actually needs "brightening up" or whether it is acceptable as it is? I have listened to it so many times that I'm no longer in a good position to judge:

http://aufnahmen.anschluss.org/sampl...vGearslutz.mp3

(Excerpt from 1st movt, Bruckner Symphony No. 7; 14MB mp3 320kbit/s)

I'll be glad to answer any technical question about the recording, and I'm open to criticism.

Peter

.flac-Version of same excerpt, no compression:

http://aufnahmen.anschluss.org/sampl...Gearslutz.flac

[Plush]

Dis mudder dugger is sounding good on my computer speakers.
Nice work!

I almost never EQ any orchestra program material save for dumping out any rumbling on the bottom octave. Your recording does not need any EQ and it's a waste of time to guess what the violins/Bruckner cello writing should sound like. You already know what they should sound like since you recorded them.

Bruckner has a desired dark sonority anyway, so let it loose.

The improvements in your present work would come in the form of searching through the other performances to find in tune trombone choir and to (impossibly) insert more in tune horn passages.

[mosrite]

I would say that the last thing this recording needs is 'brightening up.'

To my ears there is a harshness in the highs (especially present on the strings) and a fairly thin mid range. This was an MP3 clip though so I am not sure how much can be attributed to that.

On the plus side there is a clarity of sorts and good imaging and width (although depth is lacking).

Could I ask what your recording chain was please and also what processing you have done to this? There is a processed sound to my ears that might be the MP3 or might be something else (I think the overall level might be a bit high, is something being pushed to create the harshness I wonder?)

[John Brook]

Murphy's Law - what ever can go wrong will go wrong - at the worst possible time.

This is the reason the KISS principle was developed. Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Seriously, why refocus your attention from your primary task, recording, to something that can be done after the fact, EQ.

My advice is to skip EQ until the final mix.

[d_fu]

Excellent overall impression, IMHO - definitely no brightening up required. (listening with a so-so Yamaha USB card and good headphones).
Nice reverb balance - any electronic reverb here?
Do tell us what mics you used etc. Got a picture also?
There is something funny about the strings - but maybe it's just the strings themselves or it's Bruckner...
The flutes tilt slightly to the right - were they seated there?

Daniel

[pschneider]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I would say that the last thing this recording needs is 'brightening up.'

Thanks, this is quite reassuring.

Originally Posted by mosrite

To my ears there is a harshness in the highs (especially present on the strings) and a fairly thin mid range. This was an MP3 clip though so I am not sure how much can be attributed to that.

I've just uploaded a .flac version:
http://aufnahmen.anschluss.org/sampl...Gearslutz.flac

Does this sound better?

Originally Posted by mosrite

On the plus side there is a clarity of sorts and good imaging and width (although depth is lacking).

Could I ask what your recording chain was please and also what processing you have done to this? There is a processed sound to my ears that might be the MP3 or might be something else (I think the overall level might be a bit high, is something being pushed to create the harshness I wonder?)

Thanks for your hints. You are right: I've used CleanComp to raise the overall level and limit the peaks - bad idea. I've removed it in the .flac file.

I've recorded directly to a MacBook via an Alesis IO|26 interface using the built-in preamps. The main mics and the ORTF pair were Studio Projects C4s; the outriggers were Naiant MSH-1 omnis. There was a spot mic each on the low horns and on the timpani, but I hardly made use of them (I set them to 15dB below the other mics).

I mixed the tracks in WaveLab, panning the three pairs hard left and right. There is no processing apart from the slight compression which I've now removed in the .flac version.

[londontown]

Unless it's vital - always move mics - never eq. Obviously tricky after the fact.
For me one of the finest orchestra recording engineers is Shaun Murphy, and I remember him once saying that the most he's ever moved an eq on an orchestral recording was + or -1db of boost or cut and even then, grudgingly.

[londontown]

incidentally, I actually really liked the recording a lot. Wouldn't eq it. It is what it is.
Does it capture the sound in the room faithfully in your opinion? If so, you've done your job admirably.

[pschneider]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Excellent overall impression, IMHO - definitely no brightening up required. (listening with a so-so Yamaha USB card and good headphones).
Nice reverb balance - any electronic reverb here?

No, this is the natural reverb of the hall.

Originally Posted by d_fu

Do tell us what mics you used etc. Got a picture also?

Mics were Studio Project C4s and Naiant MSH-1. All I have is this crappy cellphone pic - I forgot to pack my camera. You can tell a cello from a violin, but not much more:

Originally Posted by d_fu

There is something funny about the strings - but maybe it's just the strings themselves or it's Bruckner...

Two things: a) The strings are mostly amateur players. b) Bruckner sometimes deliberately indicated which specific string and/or position was to be used to achieve the sound he wanted. As I understood from a string player, Bruckner would for example specify a high position on a lower string, which sounds different than when played on the higher string which the player usually chooses to play the same note more easily.

Originally Posted by d_fu

The flutes tilt slightly to the right - were they seated there?

Not really - my mistake. What got me confused was that the trombones were right in the middle, and I incorrectly remembered them more to the right. I've readjusted the levels in this version:

http://aufnahmen.anschluss.org/sampl...zFluteAdj.flac

Does it still seem skewed?

[mosrite]

Unless it's vital - always move mics - never eq. Obviously tricky after the fact.
For me one of the finest orchestra recording engineers is Shaun Murphy, and I remember him once saying that the most he's ever moved an eq on an orchestral recording was + or -1db of boost or cut and even then, grudgingly.

I'm just finishing off an orchestral recording from saturday night and have had to EQ.

I made a wide -1.5db cut in the mid range and a +1db boost in the air band. That was it. Very subtle but seemed to solve the slight soupy sound I was hearing.

Subtle is the word when working with material of this sort.

I think the harshness, lack of depth and mid range thinness that I am hearing is down to your recording chain. I am impressed with the results that you attained using that chain though. Well done.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pschneider

No, this is the natural reverb of the hall.

Nice...

Does it still seem skewed?

No. Very nice recording, I like it. Sounds like Bruckner..
I've heard worse recordings on "professional" major label CDs.

Originally Posted by pschneider

Naiant MSH-1.

[Tap, tap...] Is this thing good?

Daniel

[Jim vanBergen]

NO to the EQ. Yes to good mics, preamps, converters, and IDEAL placement.

[MichaelPatrick]

A touch of EQ can be OK to compensate for mic type/placement -- and to adapt to modes in the room. These adjustments of course should be to present the room in replay the way it sounds in person.

[pschneider]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Nice...


No. Very nice recording, I like it. Sounds like Bruckner..
I've heard worse recordings on "professional" major label CDs.

Thanks for your praise!

Originally Posted by d_fu

[Naiant MSH-1]

[Tap, tap...] Is this thing good?

Daniel

Yes . I think the Naiant mics are not the weakest links in my chain. Consider the following live recording I made with just a pair of MSH-1s:

http://aufnahmen.anschluss.org/sampl...et1stMovt.flac

No processing, not even level adjustment. Two MSH-1 in pseudo-ORTF through an M-Audio DMP-3 into the Archos Gmini 400 (16bit wav uncompressed).

I think the mics are worth the $22 they cost.

Peter

[mrsteaks]

Peter - sorry to jump in late here, but I had to compliment you on that recording. It was wonderful! The MP3 sounded dynamic, focused, a wide stable image, and quiet. I would have thought there would be some phase artifacts from your mic placement, but - nope. Nice work!

~~~~Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings

[Thebassist]

+1 on eq free!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

A touch of EQ can be OK to compensate for mic type/placement -- and to adapt to modes in the room.

I'm finding that out right now... Working on a baroque opera recording from a less-than-ideal dry hall, slightly reducing a range around 3.3k smoothens out the sound and makes it more pleasant - including the convolution reverb. Should use more subtle EQ in my recordings in the future..

[matyas]

A few weeks ago I did a wind ensemble recording under very difficult circumstances. (No setup time, unfamiliar room.) The end product did need some EQ, but I actually found multi-band compression more helpful. Thoughts?