Orchestra recording - To EQ or not to EQ?

[Shureman]

I’d like to introduce into this discussion the other approach to orchestral recordings. As background, suffice to say I am the audio archivist for the Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra.
My duties are to produce high quality recordings, for local consumption. These are posted on the musician’s web site for review, usually the same night as the performance. The musicians love this, especially when there is a repeat performance to follow. The recordings are also made into a compendium at the end of each season, and are used as needed for grant applications. Realistically, I think most of us are involved in archiving, not CD mastering for international distribution. I am reluctant to say this, because it often taken as offensive, but I feel many of us are guilty of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Over the years (I’m 56), I have come to find the minimalist approach to recording most live acoustic events (orchestral, chamber, choir, etc…) not only very satisfying, but on review – and perhaps this is convenient self deception – consistently produces a superior product. I’ll describe what I mean by “superior” later, but for now, the operative word is “consistently”.

About ten years ago, my abilities to lift, hall, stoop, slip into tight spaces, all became very limited. Multi-track live recordings became all but impossible. I was forced to go with a single mid-side mic (Shure VP88), and whatever the smallest digital recording device available to do the bulk of my location recordings. This forced me to learn a lot about mic placement, which in many respects is like lining up a pool shot. Half geometry, half instinct.

I have by necessity, come to learn that in 80% of live acoustic recordings, there is a nearly perfect sweet-spot for a good stereo mic to make a nearly perfect recording, one which reflects the conductor’s intentions, not the recording engineer’s. It also gives a nearly perfect impression of the recording space. Please bear in mind, a symphony orchestra is a very carefully designed array of sound sources, enough to more than carry a hall, placed on a stage, by intention, to provide the exact balance intended by the composer, channeled through the conductor. It is the orchestra’s job to get the mix right. It is my job to find “the best seat in the house” and put the mic there (usually about six feet over the conductor’s head). Incidentally, conductors are often open to suggestions at rehearsals concerning physical positioning of instruments.

The pro’s for single source recording:
Because of the utter simplicity of a single location recording, the reliability factor goes up, way up. Instead of exposure to a thousand possible glitches which come with multiple cable runs and connections, the engineer has little more to worry about than turning the recorder on in time. I rarely even monitor my recordings, and instead go sit in the audience and enjoy the concert. The musicians, stage manager, and audience also appreciate not having an adrenalin driven recording guy scurrying around minutes before the performance trying to find that loose XLR connection behind the percussion section.

Even though the mic I use is considered rather noisy by today’s standards, with only one, the cumulative noise of many super quiet mics doesn’t happen. I would urge more people to consider a single location approach as standard operating procedure, only resorting to sweeteners in those rare situations that a single mic location cannot work (antiphonal settings, singers placed at odd positions relative to the accompaniment as examples).

Frankly, I bite my tongue when I hear my colleagues describe after hours of laborious 24 track mixing that they have finally achieved a perfect natural sounding mix which matches the depth and width of the performance hall.

Rather than trying to reconstruct the hall, just go with the hall.

Am I making sense to anyone?

Finally, a “superior” recording for me is one which when I listen to it ten years later, instantly puts me back in the hall it was recorded in, coughing, air conditioner sounds, police sirens in the distance, all those warts, which, in reasonable proportion, really assigns the recording time and place. What I don’t want to hear are electronic artifacts, manipulated textures, distorted sound fields that bear no resemblance to the actual recording space, or a featured instrument which miraculously comes out of the ether and is suddenly front and center in the sound field. Those are the jarring type of things that ruin the illusion. They almost never happen with a single location mic.

I’ve attached a very short sample I recorded of Mahler’s 2nd I recorded in May of 2008.
One stereo mic, no audio compression, no eq, no reverb, pretty much just pure signal. Even in mp3, you’re pretty much there.

[d_fu]

This is indeed an impressive sounding recording, (also, but not exclusively) considering what it is. I am personally no great fan of the narrowness of MS, but let's count that as personal taste.

There are one or two points that I would consider to be potentially problematic, but maybe you have them covered as well... One would be soloists - a violin next to the conductor will probably be picked up well, but what about singers facing the audience? Got a vocal sample from the Mahler?
And what about woodwinds, this particular sample doesn't really show much of that.

There is no doubt that these recordings are perfectly suitable for the purpose, though. The mic's sound quality is quite good.

Maybe this should be in a thread of its own, since it isn't really about EQ - I was considering to open one called "to spot or not" or so...

[Shureman]

Thanks for the feedback and the open mind. I'll try to get a couple of excerpts together and send them along later today (I'm working from a CD, not the original files).

To spot or not. I really like that!

[Corran]

I like doing simple stereo recording. But when the hall sounds bad itself, sometimes that isn't possible and I try to give myself options in post.

[rumleymusic]

Incidentally, conductors are often open to suggestions at rehearsals concerning physical positioning of instruments.

You have met conductors that are....open to suggestions?

I am also a fan of minimalist miking techniques, and I would agree that it is very possible, with careful positioning to get a good sounding recording with two mics or a stereo mic placed in an expertly chosen location. Conductors like the sound because that is how they perceive it from their position, and musicians usually like it also because of the superior realism in the balance. But for most clients, who sometimes only get their classical music fix from Decca, DG, and Sony, that is usually not good enough, and it is these guys we usually have to deal with.

Just leaving a one position stereo recording "as is," is another issue. It is a fine recording, though I can think of a few places a good EQ might improve your Mahler excerpt, in the bass particularly. I don't think it is a crime to correct weaknesses in the mic's pickup that thin out or dull a recording.

What I don’t want to hear are electronic artifacts, manipulated textures, distorted sound fields that bear no resemblance to the actual recording space, or a featured instrument which miraculously comes out of the ether and is suddenly front and center in the sound field. Those are the jarring type of things that ruin the illusion. They almost never happen with a single location mic.

+1000 on this one.

I just listened to a new Telarc recording of our local professional orchestra in some new works. Now I normally praise Telarc for their realism and industry leading techniques, but the mix in this one was just all wrong. The woodwinds somehow seemed to be in front of the strings, the percussion popped out of nowhere whenever they came in, and the brass was so far in the background, I don't even know why they bothered recording them. Even the greats have less than great results from time to time.

[Shureman]

First, let me say how gratifying it is to know almost everyone seems to be on the same page, or very close to the same page, regarding minimal miking. I've been caught in philosophical food fights in the past when topics of personal taste and technical protocols are involved. This seems to be a great group of constructive criticizers. Hat's off!

Enough gushing.

Here are a couple of excerpts requested from the Mahler.

Vocal excerpt:
The stage is extremely deep, but quite crowded with Mahler's super-sized orchestra, The soloists, a soprano and a mezzo are in line with the conductor, only about a yard from the edge of the stage, one to right, one o the left of the conductor. Admittedly, the overall vocal positioning is skewed a bit too far right, which I could have corrected, but chose not to (laziness to be honest). The mic is about six feet above and ten feet behind the conductor.

Woodwinds in the mix
A great example of the orchestra, not me, getting the mix right.

Some might be interested to know, the decibel levels of this performance actually shook a light fixture above the stage loose. It fell about 40 feet, and sliced one of the violins in half. Miraculously, the violinist was not injured physically. I have it on tape.

Off topic:
I must say I am blessed with several exceptional acoustic environments to record in. The LPO has been an orchestra without a home since Hurricane Katrina. Stiil they have managed to find some superb venues to perform over the last four years. I'm actually saddened they have settled into a more or less permanent facility this year (Mahalia Jackson Theater), whose acoustics are very unflattering. I guess I'll be dusting off my spot mics and fiddling with the EQ after all.

[Tommy-boy]

I don't record orchestras, but I do record school bands. I typically eq out low end rumble and make other slight adjustments along the way.

I used ribbons on my last performance. Rather than do the high shelf boost, I supplemented them with mics that had a lot of high end, but not as much lows. Setting levels btw the two mics to get the tonal balance. Maybe I'm a ****** for approaching it this way, but it sounded right to me.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Shureman

Some might be interested to know, the decibel levels of this performance actually shook a light fixture above the stage loose. It fell about 40 feet, and sliced one of the violins in half. Miraculously, the violinist was not injured physically. I have it on tape.

Holy crap! Do you have it on videotape? I'd like to see that.

During a concert before I was a student at my college, apparently some light bulb exploded, raining hot glass on the orchestra, and there was quite a commotion. Rumor has it the recording has some cursing and such on it from some of the professors, but I can't find it.

[rumleymusic]

I used ribbons on my last performance. Rather than do the high shelf boost, I supplemented them with mics that had a lot of high end, but not as much lows. Setting levels btw the two mics to get the tonal balance. Maybe I'm a ****** for approaching it this way, but it sounded right to me.

Go on the the Royer Labs web site and find the application examples they have there. Apparently the soundtrack for the Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Mans Chest, was recorded with a bunch of royers and some condensers to fill out the high register...I don't think you are ********

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Shureman

Some might be interested to know, the decibel levels of this performance actually shook a light fixture above the stage loose. It fell about 40 feet, and sliced one of the violins in half. Miraculously, the violinist was not injured physically. I have it on tape.

That's really scary and begging for a lawsuit. All overhead fixtures MUST have safeties on them. When hanging lights, always make sure the piece of wire rope on it is attached over the pipe so if something shakes loose, it does not fall.

--Ben

[rumleymusic]

That's really scary and begging for a lawsuit. All overhead fixtures MUST have safeties on them. When hanging lights, always make sure the piece of wire rope on it is attached over the pipe so if something shakes loose, it does not fall.

She better have gotten some compensation from that, I just hope it wasn't a rare instruments that cannot be replaced.

I was with an orchestra in an old church in Spain. There were small halogens above the "stage", one broke and landed on the leg of a violist, burning her pretty badly. Never take chances with lights and rigging, and hope the stage crew knows what they are doing.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Shureman

First, let me say how gratifying it is to know almost everyone seems to be on the same page, or very close to the same page, regarding minimal miking.

I wouldn't really say that I am - I tend to spot more in recent years. But I've also recorded Mahler with 4 or 6 mics (some for the winds and soloists).

Nonetheless, I quite like these two excerpts. They seem a bit noisy (the mic?), and narrow (which is the M/S), but the overall impression is rather good.

Daniel

[Shureman]

"Nonetheless, I quite like these two excerpts. They seem a bit noisy (the mic?), and narrow (which is the M/S), but the overall impression is rather good."

This may be a tough thing to put into words, but could you try to convey what you mean by "narrow"? Any A-B comparisons you could send me?
Part of me wants to know. The other part is in the ignorance is bliss mode.

One thing I like about the M/S matrix on my mic, is it is very forgiving if I need to shift the field slightly to the left or right, without leaving a perceptable air pressure deficit on the down-leveled side. This really helps when I want to center a soloist after the fact. Bit counters cringe when I mention this, but done judiciously, it sounds pure. Not sure why it works, but it does.

The mic is noisy to be sure, or perhaps the pre's, or likely both. It's a trade-off I live with for lots of reasons, not the least of which is though I always try, I can rarely have the air conditioner turned off by the management (it doesn't happen in New Orleans). That noise floor makes the mic noise irrelevant 90% of the time in my live recordings. Remember, I'm just using a vp88 hooked with a 12 inch cable to a zoom H4, all on battery, all mounted on top the mic stand. Point and shoot. No cable runs. My physical disabilities makes this the only practical way I can get the job done alone, which is how I work most of the time.
It works well enough to please my clients, mostly musicians. I'm afraid I'll never be working for Sony however.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Shureman

This may be a tough thing to put into words, but could you try to convey what you mean by "narrow"?

Stereo spread, esp. on headphones. There's always a certain "in-your-head" kind of feeling with coincident stereo (MS, XY, Blumlein), while AB or ORTF etc. don't have that so much. Largely a matter of personal taste, there are a number of renowned engineers who swar by MS, e.g. Mike Skeet, who works for Naxos a lot...

It works well enough to please my clients, mostly musicians.

Guess that's what counts. Fine recordings, no doubt.

I'm afraid I'll never be working for Sony however.

Oh well... I've had one shot, not sure if there will be another, though.

[JohnRodd]

My 2c on the use of EQ?

I record, mix and master orchestras (and many other kinds of instruments and music) - - mostly for film work.

I do sometimes use EQ on orchestras.... however not much..... not on all tracks for sure. I much prefer to use mic placement and choice.




YMMV

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Go on the the Royer Labs web site and find the application examples they have there. Apparently the soundtrack for the Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Mans Chest, was recorded with a bunch of royers and some condensers to fill out the high register...I don't think you are ********

So I'm not ******** after all!!!

Boy, my wife will really be disappointed to learn of this!

[Don S]

Originally Posted by aracu

"I have never heard an SF-12 recording that didn't need HF help.
Adding HF can spoil what the ribbon mic is accomplishing.

I remember reading one of the initial reviews that Bashour wrote about the SF-12. He later admitted that although he liked the mic, he had to boost the HF about 10db.
As far as EQ is concerned, good engineers will try to use minimal to none. Aside from a slight roll-off and +/- a db here and there, also be able to hear when it starts to sound unnatural. In the end it has to sound good.

[Shureman]

Originally Posted by JohnRodd

My 2c on the use of EQ?

I record, mix and master orchestras (and many other kinds of instruments and music) - - mostly for film work.

I do sometimes use EQ on orchestras.... however not much..... not on all tracks for sure. I much prefer to use mic placement and choice.




YMMV

I'm scared to eq, but my orchestra's new permanent home (Mahalia Jackson Theater) sounds so bad au naturale, I'm afraid I will have to. It has a state of the art shell which is great for the audience (supposedly), but is a disaster for recording. Terrible reflections, distorted sound fields etc....It's like recording a megaphone. The instruments in the back are too bright and dominate, the instruments at the front of the stage or too gossamer and are often lost altogether. It's a mess.

So tell me a little about your eq process. Do you have an idealized sound in your head that you try to match as you eq? Is there some recording that you consider the holy grail of orchestral recordings which you strive to emulate? (If so, what is it?) Do you have a favorite hall that you try to make all your recordingds sound like, or do you just try to match your memory of what the performance sounded like in person?

Do you eq in digital or analog domain? If digital, what program or plug-in do you use?

If you have a more or less standard eq tweek formula, would you care to share it, or is that a company secret?

Any suggestions on how I fix my shell problem (not limited to eq) would be appreciated.

p.s. JohnRodd - I listened to several of your website samples - incredibly beautiful work. Hat's off.