Good mics for bad rooms?

Jungle Jazz · 9th May 2007, 08:03 AM

I'm wondering if any of you have any particular suggestions for good microphones to use in bad sounding rooms. I find myself recording jazz groups in livingrooms, rehearsal spaces, and the like, where acoustics are clearly not part of the original design. The groups are often standard trios--piano, upright bass, and drums--sometimes augmented with guitar, horns, or vocals. I know positioning can have a lot to do with it, but I find some mics very difficult to use as they either pick up too much room or too much bleed. For example, I have a pair of AKG C414XLS mics that I used to like on piano, but, even in the hypercardioid setting, they pick up so much room that they are nearly useless. Oddly enough, my CAD m179s, which are a similar design to the 414 (but cost 1/5th the price), are much better at rejecting unwanted room reflections.

So, if you are going to be recording in a space where you know the acoutsitcs are bad, do you have any mics that you bring? If so, what are they? I'm partcularly interested in jazz or acoustic music applications, both LDC and SDC mics. Thanks.

CoteRotie · 9th May 2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

So, if you are going to be recording in a space where you know the acoutsitcs are bad, do you have any mics that you bring? If so, what are they? I'm partcularly interested in jazz or acoustic music applications, both LDC and SDC mics. Thanks.

Why not try some dynamics? SM7 on vocals, Royer or Coles ribbons on instruments and possibly vocals as well.

Regards,

John

John Suitcase · 9th May 2007, 09:38 AM

If you have any control over the band set up, you can try experimenting with placement.

As far as mics, I'd agree that dynamic mics are your friend. Close mic things, and try to avoid too much high end. Sometimes cheap mics work better in bad room, precisely because they don't capture a lot of detail.

But getting it sounding good in the room, then working with that sound is the key. Trying to make something recorded in a living room sound like it was recorded at Carnegie Hall won't work. Make a kick ass recording of a jazz band in a living room. It is what it is...

zaczac · 9th May 2007, 01:39 PM

Hi Jungle Jazz. I do my fair share of mobile jazz recordings, and have been experimenting with mics for them a fair bit lately. I'm definitely also a big fan of Ribbons and dynamics these days.

I have a pair of Beyer M160s (ribbons) for OH and they are absolutely exactly what I have always wanted for drums. Warm but so clear. Great for picking up the whole kit. They're supercardioid too, which comes in handy for one room recordings. I personally love my RE20 for a big warm kick sound. It can still punch, but not in a modern clicky way. Beyer M201 is also fantastic on snare. Very natural, great for brushes, rims,
ghosting etc.

I'm not really decided on piano and bass yet. The RE20 sounds nice on bass, but it's not the tightest pickup pattern, and can be a bit too warm and dull on some basses.

Hope you get some ideas from this.

Jomppa · 9th May 2007, 02:11 PM

+1 for M160s, great mics!

Hey Zac, I remember you posted a couple of weeks ago some great sounding drum clips recorded with M160´s, but I can´t find that post now...

leddy · 9th May 2007, 05:16 PM

I'm trying to upload a sample of my piano trio I recorded this past weekend but I keep getting an error message.

I used a Beyer M160 + M130 M-S pair on the piano and an Earthworks TC20 on my upright bass (suspended in the bridge). The drums were mic'd with a pair of Oktava MC012's but I ended up not using them. The bleed into the other mics was great. I was very satisfied.

I wish I could figure out why it's not uploading.

bishopthomas · 9th May 2007, 05:31 PM

Determine what you don't like about the room and try to change it. Build some portable gobos, absorbers, and diffusers and place them around the room. Maybe if you ask nicely and explain the purpose behind it then you can rearrange furniture. That big plush chair in the middle of the living room might be better as a bass trap in a corner.

Jungle Jazz · 9th May 2007, 09:05 PM

Thanks for all the helpful comments so far. Those Beyer M160s get a lot of love in these parts. I hope to be able to try some out myself. I have a pair of Beyer MC930s, which are terrific overhead mics, and they have pretty tight patterns, so they don't get much bleed. For the most part, I'm happy with the drum sounds I'm getting--it's the other instruments that are problematic (often, because of the drums). I haven't tried ribbons or dynamics on piano, but I suppose I should. I've tried an Audix D6 on upright bass, but it really didn't do it for me--too fat and boomy. It's good for kick, and maybe for micing a bass amp, but not ideal for upright bass. Of course, I've used SM57s on snare and guitar cab, and it has worked on trumpet, but I haven't done much else with dynamics.

As far as dynamics, I'm curious about the PR30 and PR40 from Heil. The reviews say they are condenser-like, along the lines of an RE20. Anyone used these for jazz applications?

As far as ribbons go, I've been eyeing the offerings from Cascade, especially the Fat Head and the stereo X-15. Or there's a phantom powered ribbon, the K6, from Karma that might work.

Room treatment is sometimes an option, but, often, it's difficult to negotiate, either because of the configuration of the room or the amount of materials that would have to be brought in make it have any significant impact. I have, however, been experimenting with some ModTraps, with varying success. I've also used those plexiglass shields for drums, once agian, with varying success.

Oh, and I do have a pair of Earthworks TC20s, but everytime I've tried to use them, they essentially turn into room mics. Any tips on using those up close?

John Suitcase · 10th May 2007, 12:38 AM

With regard to room treatment, the only thing I regularly do is to hang a packing blanket between the drummer and the wall behind him. That seems to help a lot with weird phase cancellations from the short reflections off the wall. Occasionally, I'll make a small hole in the middle of a 12"x12" square of auralex, then stick the mic through that. That helps with keeping some things from bleeding into the mic.

Also, use the 'virtual gobo' technique, of placing instruments and mics so that their point of maximum rejection is towards whatever you don't want bleeding in.

I'll often have the drummer set up, with close mics, and the overhead coming in from the front, pointing down at an angle towards the drummer's head. Then, have the otehr musicians set up in front of the drummer, on the other side of the room, pointing at the drums. That way, the backs of the respective mics is towards the other instruments.

With piano, your best bet is probably to stick a mic or two inside, then close the top of the piano.

If you can't prevent bleed, get the instruments as close together as possible, to reduce the phase issues in the lower frequencies.

And lastly, try to capture as much as you can with as few mics as possible. More mics= more problems, in small spaces, especially.

leddy · 10th May 2007, 01:33 AM

I like my Beyers (or probably any other good ribbon) on piano because the drum bleed sounds good to me.

The bass is another story. I know it's not typical, but I have yet to find a better solution than the Earthworks omni under the bridge. Yes, it picks up everything; but the bass sounds really good (no proximity effect) and the bleed blends in with the other mics nicer than anything else I've tried. I'd like to try an Earthworks cardioid - I understand the proximity effect is not an issue at about 6 inches. I could rig up one of the flexible EW mics attached to the bass so the element is about 6 inches from the top of the bass pointing towards it. Might work...

DonM · 10th May 2007, 02:06 AM

I place close with cards - and use convolution in post to create a room... sorry but time and budgets are tight.

-D

zaczac · 10th May 2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jomppa

Hey Zac, I remember you posted a couple of weeks ago some great sounding drum clips recorded with M160´s, but I can´t find that post now...

Yeah, the thread was deleted, because Jules wanted to keep polls serious (fair enough).

Quote:

Originally Posted by leddy

I'm trying to upload a sample of my piano trio I recorded this past weekend but I keep getting an error message.

I had that problem too recently. I eventually got a really small file to work. Someone else said they had the same problem too.

I've attached my recent M160 sample, and for anyone that wants to hear them in a mix, then they're in this topic.

Thoughts on this piano trio recording?

Sorry I can't help more with the piano and bass side Jungle Jazz. Except maybe to say that the bleed from an M88 on bass was very unflattering

hughesmr · 10th May 2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaczac

I've attached my recent M160 sample, and for anyone that wants to hear them in a mix, then they're in this topic.

This drum sample is nice! This is M160s alone? Can you give some details on your placement, choice of pre, etc?

Thanks,
Mike

zaczac · 10th May 2007, 02:53 PM

Thanks Mike. I blame the mics myself :)

-Bad room with makeshift treatment and keys and upright in same room.
-Nothing but a pair of M160s in xy from a little above and infront of the kit (I got them the day before so I wanted to keep it simple).
-Mogami cable straight into my Firestudio pres

into Digital Performer on a MacBook Pro.
-No compression, no eq, no other mics.

I can't afford better pres yet, and was worried that the Firestudio might not cut it, but I couldn't be happier.

leddy · 10th May 2007, 03:24 PM

I was able to upload that clip of the Beyer M160 & M130 in M/S on the piano. There is an Earthworks TC20 in the bridge of the bass. No other mics are used in this. It's a short clip that goes from a bass solo to the piano trading with the drummer so you can hear a little bit of everything. The room was cavernous to the extreme; lots of marble and glass. The drums are loud on this tune. Not-so-good conditions at all.

This is a rough mix - but it gives the idea.

Forgot to mention - the piano is pretty bad as well.

zaczac · 10th May 2007, 03:36 PM

No drum mics in this sample Leddy? I really need to try the double bass bridge trick sometime, just don't have the right mic for the job. Piano has a really interesting character to it.

leddy · 10th May 2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaczac

No drum mics in this sample Leddy? I really need to try the double bass bridge trick sometime, just don't have the right mic for the job. Piano has a really interesting character to it.

No drum mics. I had a pair of Oktavas up, but I pulled them out. There was a wierd reflection off the glass behind us. On a tune with brushes, I would put them in a little for some snare detail but that's it.

There's something about the Earthworks omni and how it blends with the M/S on the piano. With all the bleed, it just becomes part of the mid. The TC20 picked up a ton of the drums and the bleed into the piano mics gave them dimension and depth to the point where the drum mics were not needed.

I'll add that we were set up such that piano was slightly forward. The M/S set up was in front of the piano and turned a bit towards the drums as well. The drums were turned in a bit so the front of the kit was towards the front of the M/S set up as possible. Kind of like having the Beyers about 8 feet in front of the drums with a piano in the way.

zaczac · 10th May 2007, 03:50 PM

That's a great drum sound considering you have zero "drum" tracks

It's funny how some people think they're going minimal on kit when they only use four channels.

leddy · 10th May 2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaczac

That's a great drum sound considering you have zero "drum" tracks

To be fair, it's the nicest sounding kit I've ever heard, played by an excellent musician. Makes recording easier, to say the least.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
hardware reverb with good sounding ambiance and short rooms	Alexi	Low End Theory	18	21st March 2007 12:59 PM
good tom mics	bview	Low End Theory	33	25th January 2007 01:43 AM
is KORBY mics good???	dbf	High end	18	29th December 2006 11:48 AM
Help! Old mics- any good?	whitepapagold	So much gear, so little time!	7	5th December 2006 06:42 PM
2 Good Mics For Percussion	nbutter	Low End Theory	8	9th March 2005 05:33 AM

9th May 2007, 08:03 AM	#1
Jungle Jazz Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Washington, D.C. area Posts: 288	Good mics for bad rooms? I'm wondering if any of you have any particular suggestions for good microphones to use in bad sounding rooms. I find myself recording jazz groups in livingrooms, rehearsal spaces, and the like, where acoustics are clearly not part of the original design. The groups are often standard trios--piano, upright bass, and drums--sometimes augmented with guitar, horns, or vocals. I know positioning can have a lot to do with it, but I find some mics very difficult to use as they either pick up too much room or too much bleed. For example, I have a pair of AKG C414XLS mics that I used to like on piano, but, even in the hypercardioid setting, they pick up so much room that they are nearly useless. Oddly enough, my CAD m179s, which are a similar design to the 414 (but cost 1/5th the price), are much better at rejecting unwanted room reflections. So, if you are going to be recording in a space where you know the acoutsitcs are bad, do you have any mics that you bring? If so, what are they? I'm partcularly interested in jazz or acoustic music applications, both LDC and SDC mics. Thanks.

9th May 2007, 09:38 AM	#3
John Suitcase Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,260	If you have any control over the band set up, you can try experimenting with placement. As far as mics, I'd agree that dynamic mics are your friend. Close mic things, and try to avoid too much high end. Sometimes cheap mics work better in bad room, precisely because they don't capture a lot of detail. But getting it sounding good in the room, then working with that sound is the key. Trying to make something recorded in a living room sound like it was recorded at Carnegie Hall won't work. Make a kick ass recording of a jazz band in a living room. It is what it is... __________________ --------------------------------- Suitcase Recordings Indie, Punk, Garage - On Location Recording

10th May 2007, 12:38 AM	#9
John Suitcase Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,260	With regard to room treatment, the only thing I regularly do is to hang a packing blanket between the drummer and the wall behind him. That seems to help a lot with weird phase cancellations from the short reflections off the wall. Occasionally, I'll make a small hole in the middle of a 12"x12" square of auralex, then stick the mic through that. That helps with keeping some things from bleeding into the mic. Also, use the 'virtual gobo' technique, of placing instruments and mics so that their point of maximum rejection is towards whatever you don't want bleeding in. I'll often have the drummer set up, with close mics, and the overhead coming in from the front, pointing down at an angle towards the drummer's head. Then, have the otehr musicians set up in front of the drummer, on the other side of the room, pointing at the drums. That way, the backs of the respective mics is towards the other instruments. With piano, your best bet is probably to stick a mic or two inside, then close the top of the piano. If you can't prevent bleed, get the instruments as close together as possible, to reduce the phase issues in the lower frequencies. And lastly, try to capture as much as you can with as few mics as possible. More mics= more problems, in small spaces, especially. __________________ --------------------------------- Suitcase Recordings Indie, Punk, Garage - On Location Recording

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

9th May 2007, 01:39 PM	#4
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	Hi Jungle Jazz. I do my fair share of mobile jazz recordings, and have been experimenting with mics for them a fair bit lately. I'm definitely also a big fan of Ribbons and dynamics these days. I have a pair of Beyer M160s (ribbons) for OH and they are absolutely exactly what I have always wanted for drums. Warm but so clear. Great for picking up the whole kit. They're supercardioid too, which comes in handy for one room recordings. I personally love my RE20 for a big warm kick sound. It can still punch, but not in a modern clicky way. Beyer M201 is also fantastic on snare. Very natural, great for brushes, rims, ghosting etc. I'm not really decided on piano and bass yet. The RE20 sounds nice on bass, but it's not the tightest pickup pattern, and can be a bit too warm and dull on some basses. Hope you get some ideas from this.

9th May 2007, 02:11 PM	#5
Jomppa Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 20	+1 for M160s, great mics! Hey Zac, I remember you posted a couple of weeks ago some great sounding drum clips recorded with M160´s, but I can´t find that post now...

9th May 2007, 05:16 PM	#6
leddy Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 225	I'm trying to upload a sample of my piano trio I recorded this past weekend but I keep getting an error message. I used a Beyer M160 + M130 M-S pair on the piano and an Earthworks TC20 on my upright bass (suspended in the bridge). The drums were mic'd with a pair of Oktava MC012's but I ended up not using them. The bleed into the other mics was great. I was very satisfied. I wish I could figure out why it's not uploading.

9th May 2007, 05:31 PM	#7
bishopthomas Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 609	Determine what you don't like about the room and try to change it. Build some portable gobos, absorbers, and diffusers and place them around the room. Maybe if you ask nicely and explain the purpose behind it then you can rearrange furniture. That big plush chair in the middle of the living room might be better as a bass trap in a corner.

9th May 2007, 09:05 PM	#8
Jungle Jazz Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Washington, D.C. area Posts: 288	Thanks for all the helpful comments so far. Those Beyer M160s get a lot of love in these parts. I hope to be able to try some out myself. I have a pair of Beyer MC930s, which are terrific overhead mics, and they have pretty tight patterns, so they don't get much bleed. For the most part, I'm happy with the drum sounds I'm getting--it's the other instruments that are problematic (often, because of the drums). I haven't tried ribbons or dynamics on piano, but I suppose I should. I've tried an Audix D6 on upright bass, but it really didn't do it for me--too fat and boomy. It's good for kick, and maybe for micing a bass amp, but not ideal for upright bass. Of course, I've used SM57s on snare and guitar cab, and it has worked on trumpet, but I haven't done much else with dynamics. As far as dynamics, I'm curious about the PR30 and PR40 from Heil. The reviews say they are condenser-like, along the lines of an RE20. Anyone used these for jazz applications? As far as ribbons go, I've been eyeing the offerings from Cascade, especially the Fat Head and the stereo X-15. Or there's a phantom powered ribbon, the K6, from Karma that might work. Room treatment is sometimes an option, but, often, it's difficult to negotiate, either because of the configuration of the room or the amount of materials that would have to be brought in make it have any significant impact. I have, however, been experimenting with some ModTraps, with varying success. I've also used those plexiglass shields for drums, once agian, with varying success. Oh, and I do have a pair of Earthworks TC20s, but everytime I've tried to use them, they essentially turn into room mics. Any tips on using those up close?

10th May 2007, 01:33 AM	#10
leddy Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 225	I like my Beyers (or probably any other good ribbon) on piano because the drum bleed sounds good to me. The bass is another story. I know it's not typical, but I have yet to find a better solution than the Earthworks omni under the bridge. Yes, it picks up everything; but the bass sounds really good (no proximity effect) and the bleed blends in with the other mics nicer than anything else I've tried. I'd like to try an Earthworks cardioid - I understand the proximity effect is not an issue at about 6 inches. I could rig up one of the flexible EW mics attached to the bass so the element is about 6 inches from the top of the bass pointing towards it. Might work...

10th May 2007, 02:06 AM	#11
DonM Gear Head Join Date: May 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 71	I place close with cards - and use convolution in post to create a room... sorry but time and budgets are tight. -D

10th May 2007, 02:53 PM	#14
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	Thanks Mike. I blame the mics myself :) -Bad room with makeshift treatment and keys and upright in same room. -Nothing but a pair of M160s in xy from a little above and infront of the kit (I got them the day before so I wanted to keep it simple). -Mogami cable straight into my Firestudio pres into Digital Performer on a MacBook Pro. -No compression, no eq, no other mics. I can't afford better pres yet, and was worried that the Firestudio might not cut it, but I couldn't be happier.

10th May 2007, 03:36 PM	#16
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	No drum mics in this sample Leddy? I really need to try the double bass bridge trick sometime, just don't have the right mic for the job. Piano has a really interesting character to it.

10th May 2007, 03:50 PM	#18
zaczac Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 237	That's a great drum sound considering you have zero "drum" tracks It's funny how some people think they're going minimal on kit when they only use four channels.