Cheap Alternative to AEA Decca tree?

[roonsbane]

Hello slutz,

On several of my gigs lately the first row of seats which often push right against the stage is sold out and I am having a bitch of a time getting stands in there. The only ones I have found that will work are those large triangle base atlas stands with those incredibly cumbersome extension tubes stuck on. I am thinking a Decca tree setup which could sit on my one large stand in the middle isle would be just the answer, but there is no way I will pay $795.00 for 3 one meter bars stuck together with 2 simple L brackets, and 4 clamps with threads. What a stupid rip off. Crap like that really bugs me, so much so that I would consider any other ribbon mic for purchase before the AEA’s (even if they sound fantastic) just because this is such an egregious anal rape rip off. $795 dollars what the! OK I’ve vented a bit.

I have a buddy that makes trumpets for a living and so obviously works in a great metal shop. He held one of the AEA bars in his hand and when I told him it was $345 he couldn’t believe what a rip it was. He said he could easily make them, and was supposed to for me for like “nothing” though I never really pushed him on it. Now I moved away and temporarily lost contact with him. I could try contacting him again, but was wondering if anyone has already made a solid substitute decca tree bar that I could pick up at a reasonable cost. The other option is that if I got a bunch of orders together from my fellow slutz, I could contact this buddy again and see if he will make a bunch at a reasonable price. Say around $150.00-$200.00 They probably won’t have the pretty stenciled markings on there but who cares! Anyone interested or have any other ideas?

Cameron

[mpdonahue]

Hey Cam,
I know I've said this before, but the Ultimate Support stands have an entire line of couplers, adapters and support pieces to put together any kind of stand that you can imagine.
All you need to put together a Decca Tree is a stand, 3 pipes, 2 "T" fittings and 3 mic fittings. If you wanted to get fancy you could add a couple of strut braces to make the thing rigid enough to hang speakers off of. All for the princely sum of $200, including the stand and a lead shot bag to anchor the stand on terra firma.

Hope things are going well out there.
All the best,
Mark

[roonsbane]

Hey Mark,

Thanks. Yea, the job has been great! SPCO can really play and I have had a cool diversity of music to record so far. I am doing Marriage of Figaro tonight with the Minnesota Opera. Why can't the singers just stand still? Why can't they allow me to drop some small (4060 or schoeps collette) mics from above? Those damn set designers!

I remember that earlier stand thread. I may choose to go that route. I wish I would have the option to go more than 4 feet wide. I also wish I could have something that I could use along with my big fat AKG stand or one of my APIC stands with a sand bag. I also wonder if you ever get complaints from audience members. I was actually thinking I might even get complaints even with the smaller AEA "like" rig. Classic music patrons can bitch about stupid stuff sometimes. Have you gotten complaints before? Soundmirror has a well equipped metal shop and obviously you guys have more than one way of doing things. Have you guys actually made AEA like bars as well? I would think you could easily and more cheaply make the bars. I know you have made single 1 meter bars.

Take Care.
Cameron

[Omicron_9]

Speaking of Decca Trees....

Mercury Living Presence Records: Wilma Cozart Fine and 50 Years Mercury Recordings

Regards,
-0.9

[fifthcircle]

You can make one for probably about $25 using L-bar (L shaped steel/aluminum rod) that you can purchase from your local home improvement store. Drill holes in it for mic placement, place eyebolts or any one of a bunch of fasteners on it for cable/tieback. If your bar isn't black, paint as needed. It is a pretty simple process to make your own easily. And it is so cheap that if you want to make multiples in different sizes, you can do that (it can be unsightly to have a small width tree on huge bars). I find that 2-3 settings of 4-6 inches each works well for being able to record different size ensembles. You obviously don't want to use a 1.5 meter tree on a 15 person chamber orchestra- the image gets huge. But a smaller one (say .75 meter or 1 meter) can work beautifully.

--Ben

[resound]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Thanks. Yea, the job has been great! SPCO can really play and I have had a cool diversity of music to record so far.

Hey, roonsbane. I trust you're in the Twin Cities? Would you be willing to PM me your contact info? I'm a local composer (well, new transplant, so new local). There's always the chance I'll need to book outside (not me) services or rent equipment for something in the future.

Thanks!

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Hey Mark,

Thanks. Yea, the job has been great! SPCO can really play and I have had a cool diversity of music to record so far. I am doing Marriage of Figaro tonight with the Minnesota Opera. Why can't the singers just stand still? Why can't they allow me to drop some small (4060 or schoeps collette) mics from above? Those damn set designers!
I remember that earlier stand thread. I may choose to go that route. I wish I would have the option to go more than 4 feet wide.

I made a bunch of recordings at Ordway with the SPCO in the early 90's, but we did them in session, so I've never had to hang there.
There is no set limit with the Ultimate Support pipes, just good judgement as to when it is getting wobbly. We regularly put out 2 6’ pipes coupled together in the middle for an over all width of 12’. Any wider than that and you should be using separate stands anyway.

I also wish I could have something that I could use along with my big fat AKG stand or one of my APIC stands with a sand bag.

We have made a whole series of systems based around regular 5/8” aluminum pipe with standard 5/8-27 threads on the end. These screw into threaded blocks that serve as the junction for the pipes as well as a means to mount it to a mic stand. The block has holes on all 4 sides with a single hole in the center to attach the mic stand. With this we can make any array we want on any standard microphone stand. Any machinist in the world can chop out one of these blocks in about 15 min from a piece of scrap 5150 Aluminum. I would invest in a decent 5/8-27 tap and die. With this you can tap the end of your own pipes as well as chase out the threads on the block when needed. Also, if you want them to look good for a long time I would suggest getting the stuff anodized. It will cost a few bucks, buy you could build 20 different rigs for the same price as the fancy AEA bar. It’s very pretty and elegant, but form follows function in our book. .
One of the other great things about this rig is that you can fly it with little effort. We hang it on coated picture framing wire that secures with brass crimp ferrules.
To be even more discreet we’ve made it out of the 6mm tubing with a bead blasted anodizing process that looks like the Schoeps Collette stand uprights, but it doesnt peel off like Nextel. The problem is that the threads are a lot rarer here in the US and there are no off the shelf accessories.

I also wonder if you ever get complaints from audience members. I was actually thinking I might even get complaints even with the smaller AEA "like" rig. Classic music patrons can bitch about stupid stuff sometimes. Have you gotten complaints before?

It goes with the territory. However, if you want to make good recordings of live shows, you need to put out a bunch of mics. In Boston we use any where form 18 to 48 mics depending on the program. Larry Rock uses similar numbers at the NY Phil. People are constantly complaining about the mics, but there really are no options when you’re trying to make commercial quality recordings.
The ultimate in discreet is the stereo bar we made for the DPA 4060’s out of a piece of #6 aluminum threaded rod.

Soundmirror has a well equipped metal shop and obviously you guys have more than one way of doing things. Have you guys actually made AEA like bars as well? I would think you could easily and more cheaply make the bars. I know you have made single 1 meter bars.

We’ve made just about every conceivable stereo bar in the past, I’ve got a bin with about 40 of them in the store room. It gets to be a problem when you end up making a custom bar for every gig….

All the best,
-m

[bishopdante]

There is nothing wrong with wood. A carpenter could knock you up something out of plywood which would also weigh a lot less.

[rumleymusic]

I made one out of black pipe at home depot once for about $30. It was heavy and worked terribly. Better to save get something premade, or at least buy parts designed for the task like Mark suggested.

[Petrus]

Some carbon fiber tubes, nuts, bolts, pieces of wood, polyurethane foam and epoxy. For less than $50 you can make a lightweight non resonating (unlike steel) Decca Tree contraption. Or use wood, much better and nicer looking than some light stand steel or aluminum setups.

[rcrowley]

I got my 5/8-27 tap and die at MSC Industrial Supply (online):

Die: HSS Special Thread Round Split Adjustable Dies - Round Dies | MSCDirect.com US$ 32.86
Tap (bottoming): Hand Taps | MSCDirect.com US$ 40.14
Tap: (tapered): Hand Taps | MSCDirect.com US$ 40.91

The tapered tap is easier to use and intended for thru-holes, but you need the bottoming
tap to cut threads closer to the bottom of a blind hole.

Of course, you will need the (interchangable) handles to go with those pieces.

[MichaelPatrick]

The Grace Design Decca Tree is less expensive than AEA's. $675 vs $795. I use a Grace and like it.

[bremusound]

Hi,

what works very well for me is a DIY solution made from two of those:

walimex Auslegearm mit 3 Spigots

and two 20mm curtain rods (2 meter / 1 meter), i chose those here:

Gardinenstange 20 mm schwarz Endstück Kugel bis 400 cm | eBay

You get nice 40mm balls with them which are screaming out "please make some nice APE balls out of me"

I can post pictures of the tree later

[studer58]

This thread was along similar lines to your subject.... Decca Tree Stand
My contribution (with photos) appears further down the page. I tend to use spaced AB omnis more often nowadays, but this Tree worked well. All it takes is 2 boom arms, one of which you need to 'modify' slightly, but you get a lot of flexibility in individual arm lengths. This is not often possible with the 'welded together' versions others have invented.

[Bibster]

Originally Posted by bremusound

walimex Auslegearm mit 3 Spigots

I'd say that's a Manfrotto 154, for 1/3rd of the price!

Nice find,

TschuB,

P.

[Jim Williams]

Lighting stands work great. Get them cheap from:
MCM Electronics: Home and Pro Audio/Video, Security and Test Equipment

[bremusound]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Lighting stands work great. [/url]

Especially the air cushioned ones are nice. There is a cheapo with a max length of 7.3 meters. Should be great for organ recordings.

[cirtap]

Hey,
I made a super easy decca tree out of plumbing supplies.
The most expensive piece was the mic clamps ($17x 3 each)
I'm trying it out this weekend!

[sonare]

Originally Posted by bremusound

Especially the air cushioned ones are nice. There is a cheapo with a max length of 7.3 meters. Should be great for organ recordings.

My experience is different-- you get what you pay for. A 13ft air-cushioned Manfrotto is $150 but will last an entire career. You can get an 8ft extension for it from Manfrotto-- but the real deal is no longer made.

And *that* is a 35ft Ultimate Support Systems rig that is solid even at full height. The king of organ stands!

Rich

[cirtap]

Here are a couple of pics of my decca tree in action!

[rcrowley]

Wow, you really need some sandbags on that. For the safety of your mics, but mostly for the safety of the people around it. No amount of gaffer's tape is going to hold that if someone bumps it.

STUDIO LIGHTING SANDBAGS SET OF 4 BAGS Steve Kaeser Photographic Lighting | eBay

[cirtap]

Originally Posted by rcrowley

Wow, you really need some sandbags on that. For the safety of your mics, but mostly for the safety of the people around it. No amount of gaffer's tape is going to hold that if someone bumps it.

STUDIO LIGHTING SANDBAGS SET OF 4 BAGS Steve Kaeser Photographic Lighting | eBay

Yeah, I forgot them at home and the church didn't have any salt bags. I made sure I gave myself a clear area to sprint for the "oh shit" moment.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by bishopdante

There is nothing wrong with wood. A carpenter could knock you up something out of plywood which would also weigh a lot less.

That doesn't cut it with health and safety these days. In some venues they insist that the rigging is all steel in the unlikely event of fire, it will not "burn through".

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by cirtap

Yeah, I forgot them at home and the church didn't have any salt bags. I made sure I gave myself a clear area to sprint for the "oh shit" moment.

I've used both round mic stand bases and 1 gallon water bottles (there's usually a convenience store within a few blocks of almost any venue I've worked) as "emergency" weighting on stands. Bungee cord or trick line (window sash cord) a couple of either and you've got 15 lbs or so of mass. If you have a backpack or other shoulder bag, fill it with anything heavy (hymnals if you're working in a church) and rig it to the stand to hang down near the base. It's inelegant... but rather that than a couple of pricey mics crashing into the floor or onto a singer/player... which could get even more pricey, once the lawyer-types are involved.

It's also important to get the tripod leg supports exactly parallel to the plane of the floor. The base is at maximum extension at that point. It makes me crazy to see mic stands or (more often) lighting stands with the legs run past maximum extension and pulled back in to get an extra 3 or 4 inches of height.

[cirtap]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

I've used both round mic stand bases and 1 gallon water bottles (there's usually a convenience store within a few blocks of almost any venue I've worked) as "emergency" weighting on stands. Bungee cord or trick line (window sash cord) a couple of either and you've got 15 lbs or so of mass. If you have a backpack or other shoulder bag, fill it with anything heavy (hymnals if you're working in a church) and rig it to the stand to hang down near the base. It's inelegant... but rather that than a couple of pricey mics crashing into the floor or onto a singer/player... which could get even more pricey, once the lawyer-types are involved.

It's also important to get the tripod leg supports exactly parallel to the plane of the floor. The base is at maximum extension at that point. It makes me crazy to see mic stands or (more often) lighting stands with the legs run past maximum extension and pulled back in to get an extra 3 or 4 inches of height.

Thanks for the weight ideas. I didn't even think of that. Also, good eye on the tripod legs. I didn't think of that either. I just got that stand. I have another 3.5feet of height. I should have used a more keen eye for the leg supports. I will keep all of these in mind for next time.

thanks

[Norm@gear]

Well, probably out of topic, because it is not cheap, but anyway, just for info:
A-Ray solo: Ambient Recording GmbH

Just got one of this, excellent quality

Best regards,
Norm

[KINGSWAY]

Within the plethora of construction opinions, may I quietly beg the question of
microphone placement on the Decca tree.
This technique was developed over many years and is not to be taken lightly.
The dimensions and use are paramount and are sadly misrepresented in the
current media.
Attention to the actual spacing and angles of the microphones should
take precedence.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by KINGSWAY

<snip>


Attention to the actual spacing and angles of the microphones should
take precedence.

This is true, but wasn't there some variety at DECCA in the tree ans over its life there? What I mean to say is, did DECCA ever publish a rule saying exactly what the tree was and how configured?

[Roland]

Originally Posted by boojum

This is true, but wasn't there some variety at DECCA in the tree ans over its life there? What I mean to say is, did DECCA ever publish a rule saying exactly what the tree was and how configured?

I had a wonderful leaflet, published by Decca in the early 90's about the Decca sound. I have scoured the internet on several occasions and I have never found a copy of it, or quite the information that it contained. Sadly, my printed copy, I am sure was thrown away many years ago.

What I do remember from both reading that and many other bits from interviews with Decca staff, articles and photographs of sessions, etc. that the set-up wasn't cast in stone. The tree setup, usually was spaced about 2m in width with a central mic between 1-1.5m central and forward. It was also suggested that slight variations in spacing were used depending on the particular venue/orchestra. Obviously it is well documented that the microphone of choice was the M50's which had a very particular type of polar response due to their capsules being mounted on a sphere. It was quoted that the M50's had been modified by Decca, this, I was told by ex Decca staff, involved the removal of the valve electronics and replacement with lower noise, solid state design.

It was also further noted, in some literature, that the centre microphone of the tree was not always utilized, and often was at a lower level than the L/R pair.

All this makes it difficult to reproduce the tree unless you are willing to spend a considerable amount of money on things like M50's (old, if you can buy them, new if you have the money) or TLM50 equivalents. Unless you have considerable orchestral recording contracts it is a very large investment.

Alternative microphones have been discussed at length and in my experience, whilst they can produce very good results, the tree system seems particularly suited to working with M50's.

[sonare]

This is from Simon Eadon-- who learned from Kenneth Wilkinson:

As for the tree dimensions, they should be 137cm from left to right mic with the Centre sticking out 68.5cm. For orchestral recordings we would use left and right outriggers - anything between 7'-10' from the centre. Obviously the panning of the tree is important. It should not be hard left and right. The centre mic placement should measure one foot back from the front of the orchestra. It is a frequent mistake to move the mics into the orchestra for more strings - moving the mics away is better. The heights typically are 9'6" to 10'09" but I have had tree and outrigers as low as 7' and high as 11' - it depends on the orchestra / venue / repertoire and probably a lot more!

This from Tony Faulkner:

The DECCA tree was originally developed using Neumann KM56 mics and baffles. Much of the later work at DECCA, RCA and Readers Digest was done with a tree of three Neumann M50's, often with two additional outriggers in the front as well. The Tree spacings, angles and tweaks were fine-tuned for Neumann M50's which are not true omni mics except at low frequencies where they (the tube originals) recreate a low-end weight and extension like no other mic I have ever used. Once you get into the mid-range the M50 is pretty much on the way to becoming a sub-cardioid (like, say, a Schoeps MK21). Once you get higher in the frequency range the M50 is like a cardioid.

So ... once you move away from mics like M50's with a sliding polar diagram which is a function of frequency you are not really doing anything especially "DECCA Tree". Not to say it isn't fun, and not to say it doesn't sound good, but a DECCA Tree it is not. Many modern omnis are much more 'omni' than an M50, and consequently the functionality of the mic trio is quite a lot different.

When I did work alongside DECCA people of the older vintage they were pretty rigid about the spacing and angling of their Tree mics, but the amount of centre mic was set empirically on listening after setting it at a nominal fader setting. For me the Tree works best in acoustics which are not overreverberant, and there can be problems when doing concertos because soloists close to the main array can generate unstable or overwide stereo images.

I have been having more success (with modern mic types) using a four-mic phased array on a wide stereo bar - two omnis at about 66cm or 67cm, angled out, then two subcardioids inside the omnis at about 46cm or 47cm overall spacing, again angled out. I balance one pair against the other pair and usually end up with one of the pair dominating by 6dB.

Simon also said:

Jimmy Lock (who succeeded Kenneth Wilkinson as head of the department) was in favour of us (then) younger engineers experimenting with mic set-ups. Wilkie, on the other hand, would condemn a recording that was not done accoring to previous (more often "his") custom and practice regardless of whether it was any good or not! As a matter of interest, the Beethoven Symphonies which I engineered for Arte Nova with the Zürich Tonhalle Orchestra conducted by David Zinman were started with M50s. When we were made redundant by Decca I continued the series but no longer had access to these mics - hence the Schoeps 2S with balls. The CD with Beethoven 5 was done with 50s all the other CDs were done with Schoeps. No one seems to have spotted the difference.

The last word is Tony's:

In the end, you have to listen because we are always working to the benefit and in the service of the music and the performers. So long as we do service to them, the theory can be defined retrospectively.

Rich