recording a 17 piece choir in a cathedral

bsteeve@ozemail · 7th May 2007

Hi guys,

I'm recording a 17 piece choir for that film score i'm writting at the moment.
This is own i'm thinking of recording it.

2 x PZM in front of the choir @ 1 m away and on the outter edge (wonder own this is going to sound... might not use them but i'll record them...)

2 X AT4050 in Card. ORTF @ 3m away, center

2 x Earthwork TC40 @ 10m away, outter edge of the cathedral

the cathedral is quite big, and a 17 piece choir is not that big... So my pZM and the AT should get me enough direct signal not to loose the choir is this gigantic space, my room mics my should pick up plenty of ambience, nothing better than the natural reverb time of a space!
I'm recording to a digi02 for the first 4 mics and an mbox2 for the room mics, 2 laptops, I'll clap before every recording for sync'ingn all the direct and room mics together later.

What do you guys think? Any suggestion on the miking technique?

Emi · 7th May 2007

I´d put another mic for the center...just in case...not to loose the center...

You can always experiment with stereo technics and mics placement....enjoy it if you have the time....it´s great recording a choir ...specially in a cathedral

I recorded one in the last album I´ve been working and I went for a AB tehnique (2 neumann km 184) and another neumann TLM49 in the middle....and it sounded pretty good I might say....it was not in a cathedral so I had to use some reverb at mixdown stage....but if you have the oportunity to record it in a great ambience than it can be a joy....

Have fun

RKrizman · 7th May 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsteeve@ozemail

Hi guys,

I'm recording a 17 piece choir for that film score i'm writting at the moment.
This is own i'm thinking of recording it.

2 x PZM in front of the choir @ 1 m away and on the outter edge (wonder own this is going to sound... might not use them but i'll record them...)

2 X AT4050 in Card. ORTF @ 3m away, center

2 x Earthwork TC40 @ 10m away, outter edge of the cathedral

the cathedral is quite big, and a 17 piece choir is not that big... So my pZM and the AT should get me enough direct signal not to loose the choir is this gigantic space, my room mics my should pick up plenty of ambience, nothing better than the natural reverb time of a space!
I'm recording to a digi02 for the first 4 mics and an mbox2 for the room mics, 2 laptops, I'll clap before every recording for sync'ingn all the direct and room mics together later.

What do you guys think? Any suggestion on the miking technique?

I'd put the ORTF and the room mics on the 4 tracks into the mbox 2 and leave the PZMs separate, because i doubt if you'll need them. When you hear the choir in the room, tweak the ORTF distance to taste. That plus the room mics should do it. If you're losing the center, don't angle them out so far.

-R

uvc1977 · 7th May 2007

Whenever I do these types of recordings I always work off the placement of my main pair. I try and get the best stereo image & balance between direct & reverberant sound possible. I then will use a pair of mics as outriggers to add width to the recording and then a pair of room mics to add depth.

ORTF or NOS are my fav's stereo mic tech's for my main pair. ORTF's ill use when the performers are positioned alot closer and NOS when they are spread out more. 3M is a good starting point and then just listen to how it sounds, take the opportunity to move your main pair closer and further back to give you an idea of how it sounds. You will be amazed how different just 30cm will make. I own a pair of AT4050's and they are great mics.

Once you are happy then bring in your outrigger mics. I would find 1M way to close to use as you will pick up too much direct sound of individual voices. Id be looking at 3 - 4M back. Then just listen to them on their own and with the main pair. Move them around until you find that spot where they bring out the width of the stereo image.

Finally the room mics 10M back is a nice starting point you might find that the combination of your main pair and outriggers will give you all the reverb you need of the hall but the rooms may be just that nice icing on the cake. Good luck with the recording!

audiothings · 7th May 2007

coupla suggestions:

* this type of question is best asked in the "remote possibilities...." forum...

* maybe you want to take the digital out from your mbox and feed it to the other rig so that you don't have to get into sync and other issues. or maybe not.

* google for "the stereophonic zoom", a pdf that would give you a hundred options to consider... meanwhile...what rkrizman said... try to get your basic sound from one pair of mics and see what (if anything) you need to augment those... need more center? need more ambience? need a spot for a section of the choir? you've got options... also you can put an AB omni pair relatively closer to the choir and get a fair bit of ambience... directional mics you'll have to put a little further away to get a similar direct to revrberant ratio... i'm guessing that if the choir is balanced in itself, one stereo pair should get the job done...

best wishes,

pkautzsch · 9th May 2007

2nd the "remote possibilities" hint.

When recording choirs, I usually go for a spaced pair as main mic, and place it so it sounds great on its own. A well-set up spaced pair won't cause any hole in the middle trouble.
For a film score, a slight hole in the middle can work out nicely though, as music will less mess with dialogue. Therefore I could imagine spacing the mics a little too wide and using an additional center XY pair - start, maybe, with 120° between the mics. You don't want the music on the Center channel where it will just mess with Dialogue.

bsteeve@ozemail · 11th May 2007

That is it, the recording is today!

This is what I'm going for.
Laptop -> digi 002 connected with Focusrite 428 quad pre.
So 8 inputs total.
I'm going to use a few mics on this. (i can always drop some of them later...)
1 AT 825 Stereo mic (above conductor)
2 Peluso CEMC6 small d. condenser (space pair in front of choir for direct signal)
2 AT 4050 (1st Room pair, mid distance)
2 Earthworks TC40 (2nr Room pair, far distance)

There is no dialogue where the choir is going to sing, but I agree that sometimes a whole in the middle can make things a bit wider and easier to mix in the movie.

7th May 2007	#1
bsteeve@ozemail Gear nut Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 104 Thread Starter	recording a 17 piece choir in a cathedral Hi guys, I'm recording a 17 piece choir for that film score i'm writting at the moment. This is own i'm thinking of recording it. 2 x PZM in front of the choir @ 1 m away and on the outter edge (wonder own this is going to sound... might not use them but i'll record them...) 2 X AT4050 in Card. ORTF @ 3m away, center 2 x Earthwork TC40 @ 10m away, outter edge of the cathedral the cathedral is quite big, and a 17 piece choir is not that big... So my pZM and the AT should get me enough direct signal not to loose the choir is this gigantic space, my room mics my should pick up plenty of ambience, nothing better than the natural reverb time of a space! I'm recording to a digi02 for the first 4 mics and an mbox2 for the room mics, 2 laptops, I'll clap before every recording for sync'ingn all the direct and room mics together later. What do you guys think? Any suggestion on the miking technique?

7th May 2007	#5
audiothings Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 1,209	coupla suggestions: * this type of question is best asked in the "remote possibilities...." forum... * maybe you want to take the digital out from your mbox and feed it to the other rig so that you don't have to get into sync and other issues. or maybe not. * google for "the stereophonic zoom", a pdf that would give you a hundred options to consider... meanwhile...what rkrizman said... try to get your basic sound from one pair of mics and see what (if anything) you need to augment those... need more center? need more ambience? need a spot for a section of the choir? you've got options... also you can put an AB omni pair relatively closer to the choir and get a fair bit of ambience... directional mics you'll have to put a little further away to get a similar direct to revrberant ratio... i'm guessing that if the choir is balanced in itself, one stereo pair should get the job done... best wishes, __________________ http://soundcloud.com/audiothings/mudhakaratha-rm

9th May 2007	#6
pkautzsch Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 1,480	2nd the "remote possibilities" hint. When recording choirs, I usually go for a spaced pair as main mic, and place it so it sounds great on its own. A well-set up spaced pair won't cause any hole in the middle trouble. For a film score, a slight hole in the middle can work out nicely though, as music will less mess with dialogue. Therefore I could imagine spacing the mics a little too wide and using an additional center XY pair - start, maybe, with 120° between the mics. You don't want the music on the Center channel where it will just mess with Dialogue. __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

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7th May 2007	#2
Emi Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Madrid Posts: 276	I´d put another mic for the center...just in case...not to loose the center... You can always experiment with stereo technics and mics placement....enjoy it if you have the time....it´s great recording a choir ...specially in a cathedral I recorded one in the last album I´ve been working and I went for a AB tehnique (2 neumann km 184) and another neumann TLM49 in the middle....and it sounded pretty good I might say....it was not in a cathedral so I had to use some reverb at mixdown stage....but if you have the oportunity to record it in a great ambience than it can be a joy.... Have fun

7th May 2007	#4
uvc1977 Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 249	Whenever I do these types of recordings I always work off the placement of my main pair. I try and get the best stereo image & balance between direct & reverberant sound possible. I then will use a pair of mics as outriggers to add width to the recording and then a pair of room mics to add depth. ORTF or NOS are my fav's stereo mic tech's for my main pair. ORTF's ill use when the performers are positioned alot closer and NOS when they are spread out more. 3M is a good starting point and then just listen to how it sounds, take the opportunity to move your main pair closer and further back to give you an idea of how it sounds. You will be amazed how different just 30cm will make. I own a pair of AT4050's and they are great mics. Once you are happy then bring in your outrigger mics. I would find 1M way to close to use as you will pick up too much direct sound of individual voices. Id be looking at 3 - 4M back. Then just listen to them on their own and with the main pair. Move them around until you find that spot where they bring out the width of the stereo image. Finally the room mics 10M back is a nice starting point you might find that the combination of your main pair and outriggers will give you all the reverb you need of the hall but the rooms may be just that nice icing on the cake. Good luck with the recording!

11th May 2007	#7
bsteeve@ozemail Gear nut Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 104 Thread Starter	That is it, the recording is today! This is what I'm going for. Laptop -> digi 002 connected with Focusrite 428 quad pre. So 8 inputs total. I'm going to use a few mics on this. (i can always drop some of them later...) 1 AT 825 Stereo mic (above conductor) 2 Peluso CEMC6 small d. condenser (space pair in front of choir for direct signal) 2 AT 4050 (1st Room pair, mid distance) 2 Earthworks TC40 (2nr Room pair, far distance) There is no dialogue where the choir is going to sing, but I agree that sometimes a whole in the middle can make things a bit wider and easier to mix in the movie.