Front End: Mixer or Rack Units?

[bishopthomas]

Maybe I think about things too much and that causes me to constantly change my mind, but I am debating which would make more sense. I have been planning on using three 8-channel preamps/AD's as the front end to my HD24 until recently. Now I am wondering if a digital mixer like the o1v might be a better choice. I like the idea of keeping everything in one rack, but the preamp route has its limitations, live monitoring being my primary concern. With the rack mounted units into the HD24 there is no way to monitor the inputs without a mixer. So if I have to have a mixer then why not let it take care of the preampse?

So, option #2 is a digital mixer (or 2) like the o1v that will provide 24 preamps, lightpipe to the HD24, then lightpipe back to the digital inputs of the 01v's. This will also take care of my secondary concern: live to 2-track mixing. I have used the o1v a little, but in a live environment and never with a discerning ear. I think that units like the OctoPre, Digimax, etc will have better preamps/converters, but do you think it would be a better quality-convenience ratio to go with the o1v option? I plan on adding high end preamps down the road anyway (Great River, Grace, etc.), so maybe the decent pres in the o1v are good enough until I can take that huge leap.

[Remoteness]

For me, I like use both at the same time...

I like having high quality preamps as the front end into the recorder then use a digital (or analog when applicable) mixer coming from the recorder outputs.

Thomas, look at it this way -- Don't worry about thinking too much which may cause you to change your mind and setup.
I say this because it's the story of my life.
Consider seriously worrying when you DON'T think about things ENOUGH!

If I were you I would go with the three 8-channel preamps / AD's as your dedicated front end then use the mixer for the back end of your system.

IMO, a small digital mixer is not a better choice as a front end mic pre.
Spend some serious dough on a larger digital desk and you may have something there. But as they say, YMMV.

I too like the idea of keeping everything in one rack. The reason why I'm suggesting outboard preamps is the fact that they will (usually) sound better than a (less expensive) small format digital desk.
A simple Roland or sMackie line mixer could do the trick without breaking the bank.
In any event, you can find really good quality mic pres that will blow away the mic pre's in the 01V.

We use 01Vs from time to time, but I have never tracked with them. I have used them for live broadcasts with good results, but if we're tracking ten out of 10 times we're using our APIs, P8s or other dedicated mic pres.

Go with the better preamps and converters, you'll thank me later.

You said, "...but do you think it would be a better quality-convenience ratio to go with the o1v option?"

I say, go with the best sounding mic pres and converters you can afford. Get a used line mixer (for your monitoring nneds) now and save your bread for a nice digital mixer down the road.

Consider coming by the field shop (one of these days) and play with our 01Vs, M480s and various outboard mic pres/EQs and deside for yourself.

What do you think about that?

[bishopthomas]

Okay, so quality over convenience. I will stick to my original plan and find a line mixer for control room and foldback (when needed).

[Remoteness]

Yeah, if I'm lounging around watching some TV I'd rather have an okay (comfortable) couch with an awesome remote than a killer custom leather sofa with no remote.

[Jungle Jazz]

Here's something else you might consider: upgrade your HD24 to the HD24XR, either by getting the upgrade kit, or selling your HD24 and getting the stock HD24XR. The converters in the XR version are quite good, which would eliminate your need for external conversion and take up no more space in your setup.

As far as preamps go, you might look at the rack mount offerings that have onboard mixing capabilities, something like the Studio Projects SP828, the ATI 8MX2, or the API 3124MB+. To the best of my knowledge, all of these units can be cascaded with multiples of the same unit to provide two track mixing capabilites while also offering direct channel outs.

I'm using two SP828s and an HD24XR (I seldom need more than 16 tracks), and it works great for me. The SP828 gives you master outs, headphone out, and L/R inserts on the master buss--all handy features for live, location recording. You can track each channel individually to the HD24XR and also run a two track mix at the same time to something like a Masterlink. Or you can use the two track mix for a headphone amp.

An HD24XR plus three SP828s would give you full 24 track capability in only 6 rack spaces.

[bishopthomas]

Thanks a lot for those suggestions. The Studio Projects unit is more in my price range. How do you like the sound of yours? Have you used any of the products I mentioned (OctoPre, Digimax, etc) to know how they compare? I like the idea of having the mixer built into the unit, so I will definitely look into this route.

[Maber]

hey this is just a tought! but wouldn't it be nice to get a couple of motu or similar friewire interfaces and a set of cheapo AD converters and use a laptop to run the mixer software (I think they can run as stand alone units to) and use this as a monitor mixer? all in the name of keeping it in the rack, i think you could get it down to 4-5 units in height! and i guess you could run it as a back up recording system as well, I don't know how feasible it would be to your situation!

just and idea,
best wishes

[Jungle Jazz]

I like the SP828s pretty well. I find them to be clear, with a touch of warmth, and overall pretty musical. I record moslty jazz and acoustic music, so whatever coloration they add tends to work for me. The only problem I've run into is when using them with ribbon mics. The last couple clicks of the gain knob have a lot of gain (and a fair bit of noise). Setting the level just right at that point gets tricky as one position could be too low but one click more and it's too high. This only seems to be a problem at the extreme high end of the gain range, so it may not be ideal if you intend to use a lot of ribbons. However, if you tend to use mostly condenser and dynamic mics, they can work well.

One quirk I've found when linking two SP828s is that for some reason the stereo image in the monitoring section on the 2nd unit get's reversed--when I pan a channel to the right, it shows up on the left. This is only for the 2nd unit in the chain. I'm not sure if it's just me or my cables, but it weirded me out until I figured out what was going on. I wonder if adding a third unit would reverse this again and make everything okay?

I also have the Digimax FS, which I think is also quite good, so I can do some comparison. I find the FS to be on the clean side, with an extended top and a tighter bottom end. The feature set is great--I especially like the DAC outputs, and the clock is pretty stable. Having inserts on every channel is nice, too. However, it doesn't have any onboard mixing function, so it may not work for what you want.

I have also tried using a firewire mixer as Maber suggested. In my case, I tried the Presonus FireStudio, running on a Mac G4 Powerbook. You can connect the line outputs of the FireStudio and the Digimax to the HD24 and connect the lightpipe out of the Digimax to the FireStudio. That way you can use the included software mixer to control multiple mixes out of the FireStudio while still tracking direct to the HD24. However, and this was a limitation that I didn't realize until it was too late, the FireStudio's software does not currently support mixing for both banks of its ADAT ins and outs. They advertise it as a 26x26 mixer, but in its current version, it's really only an 18x18 mixer (8 onboard pres, 8 ADAT, 2 SPDIF). They told me that the next software revision will support all analog and digital ins and out, but it's already been three months since that promise and the new software has yet to materialize. So, one FireStudio and one Digimax could work, but you can't yet get that third set of 8 preamps under the software mixer's control.

I have a mixing board back at my studio, a Soundtracs Topaz, which is a nice complement to the HD24. It's not exactly compact or easily portable (but it's not a behemoth either), but if you are considering using a mixer, the Topaz 24x8x2 hooks up nicely to the HD24. It would provide full mixing functions, plus 24 pretty good preamps, and can usually be found used for well under $1000 dollars.

[foldback]

My HD24XR recorders have been very reliable for field recording where my Motu stuff let me down in some way every single time.

Steves advice about separate mic pres and a monitor mixer is soooooo good. I use Grace and API preamps to feed my HD24XR recorders and I use an inexpensive Yamaha analog PA mixer for solo, monitoring and mixing during the event. An Apogee Big Ben makes sure my HD24 recorders are exactly at 48k. I run two 24-track recorders, one is a redundant backup of the other.

The Yamaha has built-in SPX effects too. I usually burn a CD off the Yamaha mixer as the gig goes down so the client can walk with a stereo reference mix.

When I get back to the studio, I use a Fireport to move the Alesis tracks into Protools with no other AD or DA, then use the Big Ben to clock my Protools rig for mixing. This yields incredible sound quality.

The Grace and API preamps are the most expensive components in the signal path but they sound fantastic. My Yamaha mixer has 24 full channel strips, 4 stereo line only channels and 8 aux busses. I bought the mixer new for under $800 and put it in an ATA case. I like it a lot, it is very flexible and low noise and it is only in the signal path for my speakers and the reference 2 track CD.

Good luck with all your recording quests.

Mark

[marty lester]

lately i've been rolling w/ 3 x Presonus Digimax mic pres into
my Alesis HD24XR.

one good thing about this is having an 8 channel mic pre
to rent out when i'm not using it. also, being able to
bring only 1 or 2 of them with me if i'm not running 24
channels.

the best thing about that set-up is that the Presonus mic
pres have lightpipe and analog out at the same time, so
i can record to 2 different mediums (medii?) at the
same time for redundancy.

good luck,
marty.

[bishopthomas]

That is basically what I'm looking at. One unit will be a Firewire interface and 8 channel preamp with both ADAT and analog outputs. The other two 8-channel units will be something like the Digimax. Having the Firewire interface will allow me to use this rig for more traditional studio session work where tracking to an HD24 isn't the best option. But the same unit can double as front end to the HD24 for live events. My setup will be fairly permanent in a hard-wired rack, so it all goes whether I need 1 channel or 24, but for the right price I'm sure I could loosen a few screws.

[noamraz]

Hi there,

Do you have any recommendations on a monitoring solution for a Rig with racked pre-amps? nowdays i run the multitracks outs to a Mixer and monitoring from there + sending the monitoring console's outs to a backup recorder, Is it a common solution for you here as well?

Best regards, Noam.

[Remoteness]

Yes Noam, That's a decent way to handle it and how we do it most of the time at Aura Sonic Ltd. A dual setup (monitoring the pre's for mix and the tracks separately) is another way to do it. If you loose the tracks you still have the pre's going to your backup device.

[Gerax]

This is one of the situations where the S/MUX capability of the A/D equipped preamps really comes in handy, I have my setup hooked up like this:
I go digital (ADAT) from the pres out to my 2 sets of recorders (primary and backup) as S/MUX capable pres can output 2 simultaneous ADAT streams at 24/48KHz, which is more than fine for live recording (for studio work too as far as I'm concerned), so my two HD recorders get the same exact signal from the pres. The analog out on the pres can be used for a live console (if I'm mixing FOH too, but it's rare), while I get the digital out of the recorders to a digital desk (usually Yamaha 03D or DM1000), or analog for smaller situations. I try to keep tracks monitoring and FOH mixing as separate as possible, as those are two situations that usually require two completely different mixing issues...not a comfortable way to work; plus if something from one of the recorders goes south...the entire FOH mix could go with it (if the monitoring and FOH mixing are tied on the same board) not a nice thing to deal with...
A straight line from the pres to the FOH board is IMHO the best way to go. With AD equipped pres this is usually an easy task (you just need a set of the right cables to get to the board). The hardest task is to convince the FOH engineer to accept line level signals from your pres...

Cheers

L.G.

[Sam Amato]

Originally Posted by noamraz

Hi there,

Do you have any recommendations on a monitoring solution for a Rig with racked pre-amps? nowdays i run the multitracks outs to a Mixer and monitoring from there + sending the monitoring console's outs to a backup recorder, Is it a common solution for you here as well?

Best regards, Noam.

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this type of backup system does not make sense. If the primary recording device fails, so too would the backup recorder since the backup comes after the primary recorder. I think splitting the output of the preamps to two separate recorders is the way to go. This is what I'm planning for my rig. My preamps are not S/MUX capable but I found out I can split their ADAT outputs using these optical splitters. This way I have a completely redundant backup should my primary recorder fail and I can use the multitrack outs from either recorder to send to a mixer for monitoring/mixing. Now, if something goes wrong with my preamps....that's another story! I'm not sure what to do about that, other than have a UPS.

[Remoteness]

You have a completely redundant backup system when you double (triple) up on everything...

Pre amps, recorders, mixers and such.

[Sam Amato]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

You have a completely redundant backup system when you double (triple) up on everything...

Pre amps, recorders, mixers and such.

Very true. In my case only the multitrack recorders will be redundant. This is the area in which I think my system is most likely to fail, so hopefully I'll be OK. Time will tell...

[Gerax]

Nice little thing you have posted in that link. One thing though: are you sure it'll work with an ADAT stream? It's only advertised for Toslink which is only 2 channels...ADAT is an 8ch stream. On paper it shouldn't have any issues, as it its a passive device replicating a light beam, but with digital...you never know.

L.G.

[Sam Amato]

Originally Posted by Gerax

Nice little thing you have posted in that link. One thing though: are you sure it'll work with an ADAT stream? It's only advertised for Toslink which is only 2 channels...ADAT is an 8ch stream. On paper it shouldn't have any issues, as it its a passive device replicating a light beam, but with digital...you never know.

L.G.

I had the same concern so I bought one to try it out. Results: It works with an 8 channel stream!

By the way, that same company sells ADAT optical (Toslink) cables for as low as $2.80 per 3 foot cable. I bought a few of those and was very impressed with the quality. They are pretty heavy duty and I like the connectors much better than others I have tried.

[Remoteness]

Roland M480 on eBay

[yrplace]

Great unit if 24 stereo inputs works for you. Otherwise a pair of the Rolans 24 chl mixers linked together is a better choice and not much bigger.

Mark

[Remoteness]

I like using the M480 when recording dual 24 track sessions because we can setup the mixer's A/B switches with the main recorder on switch A and the backup on switch B.

When not in used as a dual A/B mixer, I like pairing up the stereo channels.
I have placed the kick and snare on one knob (in mono) and such.
Overheads (in stereo) on one knob, et cetera, etc.

On the used market -- This is a really nice "bang for buck" rack mixer.

YMMV

[idave]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

For me, I like use both at the same time...

I like having high quality preamps as the front end into the recorder then use a digital (or analog when applicable) mixer coming from the recorder outputs.

Thomas, look at it this way -- Don't worry about thinking too much which may cause you to change your mind and setup.
I say this because it's the story of my life.
Consider seriously worrying when you DON'T think about things ENOUGH!

If I were you I would go with the three 8-channel preamps / AD's as your dedicated front end then use the mixer for the back end of your system.

IMO, a small digital mixer is not a better choice as a front end mic pre.
Spend some serious dough on a larger digital desk and you may have something there. But as they say, YMMV.

I too like the idea of keeping everything in one rack. The reason why I'm suggesting outboard preamps is the fact that they will (usually) sound better than a (less expensive) small format digital desk.
A simple Roland or sMackie line mixer could do the trick without breaking the bank.
In any event, you can find really good quality mic pres that will blow away the mic pre's in the 01V.

We use 01Vs from time to time, but I have never tracked with them. I have used them for live broadcasts with good results, but if we're tracking ten out of 10 times we're using our APIs, P8s or other dedicated mic pres.

Go with the better preamps and converters, you'll thank me later.

You said, "...but do you think it would be a better quality-convenience ratio to go with the o1v option?"

I say, go with the best sounding mic pres and converters you can afford. Get a used line mixer (for your monitoring nneds) now and save your bread for a nice digital mixer down the road.

Consider coming by the field shop (one of these days) and play with our 01Vs, M480s and various outboard mic pres/EQs and deside for yourself.

What do you think about that?

Steve, I have been reading these posts for the past few weeks and it has helped me tremendously while deciding on my own "live" rig so upfront I want to thank you and the other guys for a wealth of very useful information!
That being said and with reference to your above comments about Monitoring the audio from the Outputs of the HD24 surely the problem with this method is exactly that you are Monitoring the OUTPUTS not the INPUTS. I believe it's ESSENTIAL that you monitor the inputs going to tape. I would appreciate your comments?
cheers
dave

[Jim vanBergen]

I think the point of monitoring the OUTPUT is to confirm a solid signal path, and a properly captured signal.

One might THINK you are monitoring the input and actually have a single broken pin in a recorder's db25 connector, that only shows itself upon monitoring the OUTPUT of the recorder.

Just a thought.

[Remoteness]

Word up Jim!

That is exactly what you're interested in when you'r monitoring the output of the recorder.

[idave]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Word up Jim!

That is exactly what you're interested in when you'r monitoring the output of the recorder.

Obviously ideally one would monitor both the Inputs and the Outputs,,,,,, but that's probably being too anal !!

dave

[Remoteness]

You get the best of both worlds when you monitor the output of the recorder.

[idave]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

You get the best of both worlds when you monitor the output of the recorder.

You are spot on Steve and I thank you for your pearls of wisdom, sometimes one can just overthink things don't you think !!

[bishopthomas]

Deja vu.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Don't worry about thinking too much which may cause you to change your mind and setup.
I say this because it's the story of my life.
Consider seriously worrying when you DON'T think about things ENOUGH!

[noamraz]

I've just read about the new Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe interface which is 4 Adat (16 Channels @ 96Khz and 32 Channels @ 48Khz!) interface with Monitoring capabilities (Headphone amp. onboard + 2 Analog outputs).
Which could make a very nice 'n easy monitoring and should be somewhat "cheap" if you compare it to any other Digital mixers.

Best regards, Noam.