Up, up, and away...

[loranoyd]

Dear fellow Remotesters,

So, I've been recording the Lansdowne Symphony Orchestra, for whom I also serve as principal violist, for three years now--6 or 7 concerts a season, all in the same venue. I've gotten to know the venue pretty well, and I've been able to achieve a resonable recording (meaning, I'm happy, the wife, who is the real engineering ears of the team, is happy, and the orchestra members who buy the recordings are happy). So, don't you know, the last concert of the season has been moved to a new location: a middle school auditorium I do not know at all. I have been assured by the music teacher who helped secure the venue that the acoustics are "OK." I'll take that, and I trust her ears (she's a violinist in the orchestra, and I've played many wedding jobs with her.) Here's the problem: In our normal venue, the stage is level with the first row of seats (i.e. not raised). I put my mics on stands in the first row, which is about 4 or 5 feet away from the first line of musicians, and I'm up about 9 feet. The stands don't go any higher (the boom is fully extended straight up). The new venue has a raised stage. I'm guessing about 3 or 4 feet. What should I do?

For added fun, I have a (personal) limitation: I don't fly mics. Never have. I don't have the time to figure this out, and I have no desire to walk on catwalks. Given that I won't have really any time to experiment, because I have to play viola during the dress rehearsal, I'm looking for promising solutions. I will bring one stand and a pair of mics and a 2-track recorder to the dress rehearsal, and my wife will meet me there, so we can at least try a few, limited things. I'm thinking, of course, of taller mic stands--but I don't know what I'm looking for, or where to look. A lot of my web searching results in 9 foot tall stands, which, of course, I already have. Any place you know of that can deliver overnight? Can I attach another boom to the top of the boom I have? I'm so inexperienced here, that I do not even know what's possible. All suggestions welcome!

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[mohthom]

I don't suppose it's even worth asking, but many of the halls around here have microphones permanently installed - dropped from the roof. This venue doesn't does it?

Also, has anyone you know recorded there before? Have you been yourself? How wide is the room? How deep? How high? What kind of feel is the room (heavily padded seats, lots of hard surfaces?)?

I guess the question I'd be asking myself is 'how much do I want the room to affect the sound' and, given my experience of school halls, the answer for me would be 'not much'.

I'd get the mics as close to the orchestra as possible. I don't know what mics you have available to you, but in that kind of a situation I've always had excellent results from M-S recording (do the decoding at home) or, if it's a very wide room, I would use an extra pair of wide omnis.

It's a loaded question - what gear do you have, what are you able to get/borrow, how much are you willing to spend etc. I guess the programme makes a huge difference too - I'd never use the above setup if there was a stand-out-front soloist (without spotmiking in addition)!

I guess all I did was ask more questions but I guess that's the way people here tend to be . . .

Hope the gig goes well,

MohThoM

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by mohthom

I don't suppose it's even worth asking, but many of the halls around here have microphones permanently installed - dropped from the roof. This venue doesn't does it?

No permanent mics installed

Originally Posted by mohthom

Also, has anyone you know recorded there before? Have you been yourself? How wide is the room? How deep? How high? What kind of feel is the room (heavily padded seats, lots of hard surfaces?)?

Unknown at this time. Will know tomorrow evening

Originally Posted by mohthom

I guess the question I'd be asking myself is 'how much do I want the room to affect the sound' and, given my experience of school halls, the answer for me would be 'not much'.

I'd get the mics as close to the orchestra as possible. I don't know what mics you have available to you, but in that kind of a situation I've always had excellent results from M-S recording (do the decoding at home) or, if it's a very wide room, I would use an extra pair of wide omnis.

This was my thinking, as well. I'm wondering if I have the height I need with what I've got right now.

Originally Posted by mohthom

It's a loaded question - what gear do you have, what are you able to get/borrow, how much are you willing to spend etc. I guess the programme makes a huge difference too - I'd never use the above setup if there was a stand-out-front soloist (without spotmiking in addition)!

I didn't want to load up my initial post with too much information, but I see now that the info you request is of paramount importance, if people are going to be able to give me good opinions. So...

Mics on hand: pair Beyer M160 ribbons; pair TLM 103s; pair KM184s; pair AKG C4000Bs; one AKG 414 B-ULS.

Pres on hand: 2 channels John Hardy M1; 2 channels FMR RNP; 8 channels from MOTU 896HD (which is also the digital audio interface)

Program: All Tchaikovsky: Marche solenelle, suite from Swan Lake, Sym. 4

Originally Posted by mohthom

I guess all I did was ask more questions but I guess that's the way people here tend to be . . .

Hope the gig goes well,

MohThoM

I appreciate your thoughts.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[mohthom]

Having seen the mics you've got . . . there's a lot of cardioids!

So, if I remember correctly (not owning any of those particular mics) both pairs of Neumanns are cardioid, then there's the C4000b, the ribbons and the 414.

Well . . . unless you've got some omnis you're holding out on (I know the C4000b is a multi pattern, but I've not heard one yet and I'm a bit suspicious of the word 'electret') I'd think about something a little unconventional. Have you ever come across Planar Format Ambisonics?

Essentially this involves two figure 8 mics arranged as a blumlein pair, with a pressure (omni - 414?) mic all jammed as close together as you can get 'em. It gives, when executed correctly, magnificent detail and space - great with the program you've got going there. I've played a few times (it's like a massive extension on M-S technique - but because you've only got one set of mics and no wides, you've GOT to get it in the right place) and normally with superb results. A word of warning - try it out in tests before you go rather than chance that you'll get along with it.

There's some stuff on recording like this on the wikipedia article on ambisonics - just scroll down to native microphones and you'll get there.

Let me know whether that tickles any fancies,

MohThoM

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by loranoyd

Mics on hand: pair Beyer M160 ribbons; pair TLM 103s; pair KM184s; pair AKG C4000Bs; one AKG 414 B-ULS.

With that, in a hall with "OK" acoustics, I'd go for TLM 103s widely spaced about 1/3 and 2/3 of the stage width, and KM184s in XY right over the conductor's head. This often gives a good string sound with enough brass, and by XY some control of the spread.
You can then use the Beyers as woodwind section mics. Maybe a 4 to 5 ft spaced omni room pair in somewhat like 8th row can be good, and you'd have left the C4000s.

Originally Posted by mohthom

Essentially this involves two figure 8 mics arranged as a blumlein pair, with a pressure (omni - 414?) mic all jammed as close together as you can get 'em. It gives, when executed correctly, magnificent detail and space - great with the program you've got going there. I've played a few times (it's like a massive extension on M-S technique - but because you've only got one set of mics and no wides, you've GOT to get it in the right place) and normally with superb results. A word of warning - try it out in tests before you go rather than chance that you'll get along with it.

Sorry, no pressure mics in the collection. 414 is, as most switchable-pattern mics, just two cardioids back-to-back. KM183 would be a pressure mic...
Works probably better with only SDCs.

[mohthom]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Maybe a 4 to 5 ft spaced omni room pair in somewhat like 8th row can be good, and you'd have left the C4000s.



Sorry, no pressure mics in the collection. 414 is, as most switchable-pattern mics, just two cardioids back-to-back. KM183 would be a pressure mic...
Works probably better with only SDCs.

Bugger - I always get confused with what is and isn't kosher with Ambi-recs. Well, looks like that's out too . . .

Unless you're seeing mics I ain't, there's no spaced omni option (other than the C4000s) - that would have been my go-to setup with an M-S pair.

Depending on how far back you go the X-Y setup can work just great - the M-S I would have literally just behind the conductor's head (7 1/2 ft up) - depends on space constraints . . .

MohThoM

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Depending on how far back you go the X-Y setup can work just great - the M-S I would have literally just behind the conductor's head (7 1/2 ft up) - depends on space constraints . . .

MohThoM

Do you mean I should put the mics on stage and just behind his head? There is no way on god's green earth he would allow me to do this. With my mics on stands on the floor in the first row of seats, I'm wondering if I have the height to get 7.5 feet above the conductor's head. That's really the question I'm having here.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[mohthom]

It's the question I ask my clients every time . . . do you want it to look good or sound good? I spend most of my time trying to get people to decide.

I was asked to record a Verdi Requiem a few weeks back - 250 singers, 100 orchestra - and told that the mic setup needed to be invisible in a hall with a high stage (4.5ft up) and singers going right to the back of the organ gallery (no option to fly mics - read on). They wanted spots on everything, and total invisibility - and the whole thing to be set, tested and ready to go within a couple hours - whilst not disturbing the rehearsal that was scheduled for the same time. Needless to say, I turned it down - and the next guy they asked told them the same thing - invisible = sounds bad (in those circumstances). They ended up with a 24 channel recording (a little overkill?) - and 24 very visible mics.

I always try and ascertain whether it's a concert to be recorded (I think of these as proper recordings) - obviously tactful with mic placement as far as poss. and as far as practical keeping stands out of sightlines etc., or a recording of a concert (archive recordings). I don't work with archive recordings unless I'm feeling VERY hungry - because they tend to be a big pain in the ass.

I guess what I'm saying is if you want to get the kind of recording I think you do, you've got to put your microphones in a place where they sound good - and you're going to be able to see them. If you've not got any high mic stands (I think Giraffe is the brand you'd be looking for - or try searching for Cathedral Stands) then your options are going to be limited. If my suggestion of M-S is going to interrupt the enjoyment of the blue rinsers who can't see the conductor because of a 1/2 in thick piece of metal tube, I'd turn it down. Maybe I'm lucky enough that I'm enough in demand to do that - but I think that's because I know that I'm always judged on my last recording. If my last recording was bad because I didn't get mics in the right place, work would dry up.

Maybe we look at it different ways (I know I'm very opinionated - please don't mistake it for forcefulness!), but please let me know what you decide and how you get on!

MohThoM

[loranoyd]

Hi, MohThoM.

I understand and appreciate all you said. The conductor won't allow a mic stand right behind him because HE himself wants to be seen!! In fact, he doesn't give a rat's patootie about the "blue rinsers." It's all about the conductor. When he turns around to his (small, but) adoring audience, the last thing he would tolerate is a stand in front of him! In fact, he and I have gone around quite a bit about the center mic stand at previous concerts--and that stand is a good 6 to 8 feet or so away from him. Says it ruins the video that his wife is camcording from the balcony. I do the best I can. For me, it's about documenting the performance. I do not get paid for the projects. I make my money selling CDs to the orchestra and its Board, and we have a few ideas about selling discs to the audience that might net me a few more dollars. Recording is definitely not my main gig. In fact, my hope is just to break even and recoup my investment--which, at the rate I'm going should happen in the year 2525!

I will find out tonight at the dress rehearsal just what I'm up against. I'm bringing one stand, a pair of the AKG C4000Bs, and a Marantz flash recorder just to get a sense of what things sound like from the first (or second) row center of the auditorium, and as high as my stands can go. I'm bringing the AKGs because they are the only mics in my kit that seem to respond tolerably well with the mic pres from the Marantz--a rather surprising discovery I made recently. If I'm feeling adventurous, I'll see if I can plant the stands on the armrests and secure it well enough. That should get me another foot or so of height.

An interesting and serendipitous occurence: my wife received a call just about a half hour ago from one of the reps at our local Guitar Center, who phoned out of the blue on an unrelated matter. He's interested in trying to help us out with some tall stands! Depending on what he's got, it might be time for another investment, as it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that I need height (setting aside a growing Napoleon complex!) Any ideas what I should expect to pay for tall stands?

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[worldwidewick]

You might be able to get stands (for the next time, seeing as the dress is / was tonight) at a lighting or PA house to use as extensions. I'd recommend Hi-Boy or Hi-Roller stands. These have Gobo heads that you can clamp your existing stands into to raise them even further. Several manufacturers are Matthews, American or Manfrotto. Another way to go, but probably way outside your budget, would be to use a telescoping studip microphone boom (typically from J. L. Fisher or Mole-Richardson).

That, or find a young enthusiastic rigger and lit him / her do the climbing for drop mics!

[mohthom]

I'm looking at some cathedral stands for myself at the minute, and the company that supplies them only delivers within Europe. The ones I'm looking at are made by Millenium (and the stands that I've had from that company before have been VERY sturdy - great value - far moreso than my Quikloks) - and run to about $100 each.

Hope that's of help!

MohThoM

[joelpatterson]

I've noticed a strange correlation between people who "want the mics invisible" and people who are total dipsh*ts. Pretty much 1:1. People with a level-headed view of the world realize that one or two or three slender mic stands are no more distracting than the bizarre ponytail hairdos some of the bassonists sport or the wild crazy-eyed dementia of some of the older violin players. It's not like I need to place a lawn tractor center stage.

If it ever comes up, I point out that I can make the recording sound really terrible, if they like, but it ain't gonna be easy.