Showing up at a gig - live mixing

[Guarnanene]

Hello.... I appologize, delete if you don't want this thread, I understand.

but i trust you guys, and don't really know of a live sound board.

so if you could take some time to answer my question I would appreciate it.


I am new within 3 years to being a contract sound guy... I have done lots of studio work, and lots of A2 work before that... but have just recently (within the past 3 years) have become a solo A1 guy..

everywhere I have worked, it has been a perminant install...with a tuned room, high end gear, line arrays, digi-design venues and the occasional analog desk....

Now I know a guy who needed a sunday morning sound guy for their 3 services... and I am always willing to help out.



now here is the part that I am concerned about...

this church meets in a theater, so every sunday morning they have a 4:30 call, to haul EVERYTHING in, and setup.

Now since I live 2 hours away, and I am basically volunteering (small compensation..which I am greatfull for) they asked me to be there by 6:30 (band load in)

so I have time to check mic placements etc... and the rehearsal to create my mix.

I am using a yamaha M7CL (which I know inside and out... great little console I think.), so I'm not worried about that, I'm happy with the on console effects and such, so I won't be bringing any outboard stuff (at least for this gig).. and I won't have a learning curve getting used to their gear.


now for the question: can you guys give me any heads up on what to expect? Is there something I should bring? My guess is that they don't tune the speakers every sunday morning, so it will be a default setup..

it'll be about a 2500 person crowd, so it is important for me for it to go as seamless as possible.

being the same band almost every week, they do have the scenes saved so I have a floor to work from..... but obviously not a mix.

thanks!


here's a picture of the theater

[forsooth]

I think this should probably be over on the Remote forum! Go there and ask Steve Remote what you should do....... he'll put you straight in two minutes . Steve has probably done more of this stuff than all the rest of us combined!

Good luck!

forsooth

[Guarnanene]

Hello, I was pointed to this forum by posting in the wrong forum and was told this is where people would be able to help!

[Guarnanene]

Originally Posted by forsooth

I think this should probably be over on the Remote forum! Go there and ask Steve Remote what you should do....... he'll put you straight in two minutes . Steve has probably done more of this stuff than all the rest of us combined!

Good luck!

forsooth

how did I miss that forum to begin with?

thanks!

[forsooth]

You are welcome! Steve is a good guy and has tons of experience that he willingly shares with us lesser mortals and we all benefit from his wisdom and experience!

That's what these forums are good for. He'll steer you straight with no BS!

Cheers

forsooth

[bishopthomas]

A 4:30 load in! I assume the service is at 9:00 or so? What kind of speaker system goes in here? It looks like an awesome place to work, and not bad for a church service. Hopefully they don't expect you to setup in that glass booth in the back. What theatre is that? Ask as many questions as you can if you're walking in to this preset system. If this is going to be an ongoing gig for you then I would suggest arriving at 4:30 the first day, just to make sure everything is what it should be.

If you were asked to be a part of this then it's probably because what they are doing now is wrong (or maybe the knowledgable person left). Either way, expect to be the only one who knows anything about sound. Don't be cocky and don't talk down to anyone, but realize that you're there for a reason.

[RedEar]

Everything bishopthomas said as well as, be as flexible as posible. For the first few weeks expect anything.

[Remoteness]

Word!

[Berolzheimer]

Nice theatre. Notice the curtains behind the balconies- it looks to have good controlled acoustics, which will be hugely in your favor.

[Guarnanene]

thanks for the comments!

Yes, I was worried about being put behind the glass also, but that is something I'm willing to fight against.

I'm looking forward to it, I will post after sunday how it went... if anyone cares.

[big country]

never underestimate a slut , most of us share the same passion for sound
and actually get a thrill supporting other members. your dealing with some top notch people . have no fears and carry confidence, as it will carry you
farther in life . ( Its a little known secret around here that the remoters
forum is the best )

that pic took my breath away .

[structuredloud]

I love the M7! 32 or 48 version? I would be careful about starting from someone else's scene though because (as you probably know) the routing is VERY flexible, incuding all i/o and sends. I would make sure to go through it save that onto your own USB flash drive.

[structuredloud]

Oh, it's sunday now. Hope it went well.

[Jim vanBergen]

How did the gig fare? I assume you did OK with their house speaker system...

What part of the world are you in?

Cheers,

JvB

[Guarnanene]

It went well! thank goodness! it wasn't that venue I found out... that is their new building, they were in a slightly smaller theater..

I'm in atlanta GA btw:


I showed up at 5:15, (had to get up at 3:15 this morning) and everything was already set up... (I think they did it last night)


the M7 was a 48 channel, and I started with another guys mix, saved it over to my own, and then re-did everything..... patching only took a minute to fix. (btw: just found the channel move function, that is pretty cool.) It was interesting becuase they were adiment about it being under 88dB, which is not normal for me..


only one hiccup, the A2 made an honest mistake of starting the musicians ears patch one to early.... so they were not getting their proper mix.... so that took several minutes to figure out ("I could use less click" ..*take some out ... next song, "I could still use less click" *takes some more out... next song "I could still use less click" .. *drop the click, but it's still in his ears...crap.)


Mix wise, I felt okay, all the problems came from the musicians messing up and not me which I was thankful for. (I didn't miss any cues)




it's weird though, I know engineers who get their board mixes to sound great on CD AND in the house.... how do they do that? lol... I thought it sounded good in the house... the place had NO low end... and it was under-subbed.... so just a bunch of mid-highs screaming at you... so listening back to the mix, there is WAY to much kick and bass...and the vocal is way to deep... but I honestly felt like it sounded good in the house.



another thing... I felt great about everything BUT the kit..... which is bad enough to ruin a whole mix.... I felt I got great mic placement on the guitar amp (1 57 off center of one of the VOX AC30 cones, pointed slightly inwards about 1 inch off the grill.....really wish I had a 609 with me though to get the growl..) , good EQ on the bass, lead vocals sounded good, lead guitar sounded amazing (gibson j45)..

but the kit sounded terrible...

my main problem, the last guy gated the CRAP out of every peice.... which I tried to deal with, but I should have just taken them off at the beginning (inconsistant drummer, always hitting at different pressures)

I had a beta 91 inside the kick, beta 52 at the hole... 57 on the snare, audix pencil mics (whatever they are called) on the HH and OH (which I thought was weird for overheads) but they had beta 98s on the toms, which I guess are used fairly often, but I hated them...... they were just mud for me, even though I slaughtered the EQ, all it was was mud.



so overall, the poor kit sound really ruined a lot of the mix, I tried many many different mic placements each mic (and it did sound better the 3rd services compared to the first) but it still wasn't good.



so let me get a clip together so you guys can have a listen..... again, i know there is WAY to much bass and kick... and the vocals are WAY to burried.... but I PROMISE it didn't sound like that live..



you guys ROCK BTW... thank you for your help and for being willing to help! This is why I love this site.

[Guarnanene]

Okay, here are some clips..


3 things,

sorry about overdriving the CD player
Sorry about the weird phasing issues, it wasn't there live

and I think the keys were goosed in the CD mix cause I don't remember them ever being that loud


Oh, and I promise the BGV had herself in her ears :)
http://www.draddy.org/music/athens/H...20-%20Free.mp3

http://www.draddy.org/music/athens/M...0to%20save.mp3

I would LOVE some real advise from you guys about how to make it better... again I'm fairly new to mixiing, everytime I do it it is a HUGE learning experience.

[Guarnanene]

thoughts?

[Steve Smith]

ok... I am not able to listen to your clips, so none of this is based on what you posted as examples:)

You were askign how guys get great cd refs and live at the same time? there are really 2 ways to go about this, the first way si to have the PA dialed in and run loud enough to not be influenced by the sound coming off stage. That isnt going to happen in your senario..

The second is to run your referance mixes off of a matrix out, that way you can create a subgroup based " offset" to compensate for the room balances ( for instance, put less of the bass and drum subgroup in the CD matrix out, since you are jamming on them in the house.

I spent about 7 years doing a TON of church gigs, ranging from 500 to 15000 in attendance, and the volume issue was brought up on every one... lol . This is a clientelle that has generally had to deal with hacks who dont understand things like tonal balance and how to not make it "hurt". I would say that about 90% of the time I was able to get around the volume limits when they heard the mix ( and I switched the meter to "A" weighted and slow response....)

Ah yes... Church techs and thier love of Gates..... I swear, 9 out of 10 times I do a gig at/for a church there are 2 things that happen:
#1, there are gates on EVERYTHING, vocals, kit, you name it.. the bypass button is your friend...
#2 there si a ton of stuff double mikes, 2-3 mics on a kick, 2 on the snare, and on and on.. don;t get me wrong, I am all about being slutty, but if you cant get sounds with one mic, adding more isnt going to help....

[Guarnanene]

Originally Posted by Steve Smith

ok... I am not able to listen to your clips, so none of this is based on what you posted as examples:)

You were askign how guys get great cd refs and live at the same time? there are really 2 ways to go about this, the first way si to have the PA dialed in and run loud enough to not be influenced by the sound coming off stage. That isnt going to happen in your senario..

The second is to run your referance mixes off of a matrix out, that way you can create a subgroup based " offset" to compensate for the room balances ( for instance, put less of the bass and drum subgroup in the CD matrix out, since you are jamming on them in the house.

I spent about 7 years doing a TON of church gigs, ranging from 500 to 15000 in attendance, and the volume issue was brought up on every one... lol . This is a clientelle that has generally had to deal with hacks who dont understand things like tonal balance and how to not make it "hurt". I would say that about 90% of the time I was able to get around the volume limits when they heard the mix ( and I switched the meter to "A" weighted and slow response....)

Ah yes... Church techs and thier love of Gates..... I swear, 9 out of 10 times I do a gig at/for a church there are 2 things that happen:
#1, there are gates on EVERYTHING, vocals, kit, you name it.. the bypass button is your friend...
#2 there si a ton of stuff double mikes, 2-3 mics on a kick, 2 on the snare, and on and on.. don;t get me wrong, I am all about being slutty, but if you cant get sounds with one mic, adding more isnt going to help....

lol! thanks for the reply!

I did the same with the SPL meter... it was a cheap radio shack one, but I was able to put it on A and slow..

I also felt like I had a pretty painless sound also, I think the vocals were the only part that could have gotten more painful if I had gone louder...... I should have worked on them though.

about the gateing..... I feel like I can understand the want for gateing... but they were gating the drums VERY harshly to keep the overtone down......correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a tuning issue with the kit?


but yeah, I went through and bypassed the gating on everything but the kit, thinking it was okay to leave the kit, but I was wrong.


I'm really looking forward to learning more about proper mic placement this summer at my internship... the engineer I'm interning under is a fien at drum sounds... when he mixes the kit ALWAYS sounds incredible... so I'm guessing it's not all EQ ...

anyways, again thanks for the help... I love gearslutz.

[Jim vanBergen]

you know, I hear this a lot, about drum kits.

I know what I like to hear in a drum kit. But you have to listen to THAT kit and hear IT in the space it is in and make that work for the PA & record mic. And you should learn what to do with three or four mics (try just one OH center, one kick, and one snare/hat mic one time!) before you crank 10-14 mics into a good kit sound. You'll learn volumes about phase and bleed if you start small. For example, most of the time if I have a mic on bass cab and a DI, I choose ONE and maybe blend a little of the other.

With a single kick drum mic, I listen to the kick, both heads, and the player, before I put the mic in. I move it to get the right placement, and can get a killer jazz kick or a Metallica thump/click kick from a single mic. It's not rocket science, it's PHYSICS!

You get the point, and you already know most of this. Lose the gates, use comps very gently if at all (threshold no lower than -2, no more than 2.5:1) just to do some limiting as a starting point. Listen to the room and add what is needed to make it a good concert experience, then put on some great cans and make a 2-mix off an aux that includes ambience, audience response, and all the guitars you don't need in the PA!

Hope these thoughts help, bro. Best wishes!!!

JvB