What amps are typical these days?

[Dave Martin]

I know that this isn't 'really' the place for this, but you guys come closer to it than anyone I hang out with...

What power amps are the standard these days for touring sound systems? Somehow, I don't think that Crown DC300A's and BGW are in the power racks... Seriously, I wen browsing yesterday, and saw a slew of Crown models that I didn't know, and a Crest or two, along with some QSC's.

I'm looking for something that I can buy a few of, for mains, monitors - whatever the need is on a given day. This isn't for a touring system - just something that I can use for venues ranging from 100-2500 people. (That range is why I want to buy amps that I can scale up or down to fit the needs of the gig).

I figure that the remote guys have at least walked by the power amps, which is more than I've done.. I'm looking for something reliable, and that runs off of 120V.

I appreciate any suggestions that y'all have.

[fifthcircle]

They aren't the best sounding amps out there, but if I need to carry in an amp rack myself, I LOVE the QSC Powerlight amps. Does wonders for the back...

--Ben

[hollywood_steve]

I don't do any live sound work, and I try to record in places that do NOT use PA systems whenever possible, so my opinion concerning modern power amps ain't worth much. But I was about to reply with the same QSC suggestion that Ben just made above. Based on seeing/hearing them in countless LA clubs, rehearsal spaces, etc., they seem to be a good balance between price and performance. Kind of like the way the Hafler P3000 (and its related models) are good all around, moderately priced studio amps.

[Steve Smith]

Dave,

You could probablly do well with either the QSC stuff as mentioned, or the Crown K2 series... what are your needs for power, and how many channels?

[fifthcircle]

If you use the Crown K2 series, make sure you go in and disable the noise gate. Talk about an anoying feature in an amp... Sheesh!!! Try to track down a buzz or ring out a system when the amps mute out.

--Ben

[studjo]

I like the BGW stuff quite a bit (sounds good and is reliable).

Do you guys in the states know "Lab Gruppen"? Really easy to carry around and quite powerful.

Jo

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Steve Smith
Dave,

You could probablly do well with either the QSC stuff as mentioned, or the Crown K2 series... what are your needs for power, and how many channels?

Eventually, enough to run mains for a maximum of about 2500 people as well as a couple of monitor sends (with probably 4-6 monitors).

[Jay Kahrs]

The QSC PLX amps are solidly built, really lightweight and reliable as hell. They don't sound as good as the big boys but they also don't draw 6 amps per amp like a Crest or Crown will. If you need to be portable and run the entire rig off a 15 or 20amp line you should probably be more concerned with power consumption then sound quality. PV and Crest joined forces a few years ago and I think it resulted in cheaper Crest amps that are American made. If you have a Yorkville dealer nearby their Audiopro amps are heavy but good. Lots of bang for the buck and they have a great warrenty.

Keep in mind while that as you drop the ohms you'll get more juice out of the amps. For the bigger crowds you might want to carry more tops & bottoms and run the amps at 4 ohms or even 2 ohms (if the amps have a 2 ohm rating, most of the new QSC stuff is) to get more juice and moving air.

[Ted Nightshade]

What amps sound really fantastic? Affordable ones and not-so affordable ones? I drag around a lot of big old honking tube amps because to my ears almost all solid state amps I hear really suck... would like to find ones that make me leave the tube amps at home without regret.

[Remoteness]

On that front -- Bryson's may do the trick for you.

[Ted Nightshade]

Thanks Remoteness, I'll check it out!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Remoteness
On that front -- Bryson's may do the trick for you.

http://www.bryston.ca/4bsstcov.html

Jesus Christ! I think I got religion...

Those folks seem real, real serious about making really nice amps!

And all things considered, they're really not *that* expensive...

[Ted Nightshade]

20 year warranty, too... man!

[Remoteness]

You can not go wrong with those amps!

[Jay Kahrs]

Bryston is making studio amps, not live stuff. I'm sure you could take one to a live gig since power is power but I sure wouldn't.

Amazing amps for FOH? Crown Macrotech's, the higher end EV line (forget the model), Apogee and Crest all make amps that sound good and are reliable, which is probably more important then sound. IMHO, it doesn't matter what the amp sounds like if it dies and lets you down in the middle of a show.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Bryston is making studio amps, not live stuff. I'm sure you could take one to a live gig since power is power but I sure wouldn't.

Amazing amps for FOH? Crown Macrotech's, the higher end EV line (forget the model), Apogee and Crest all make amps that sound good and are reliable, which is probably more important then sound. IMHO, it doesn't matter what the amp sounds like if it dies and lets you down in the middle of a show.

In my own opinion, for my own purposes, sounding good is much, much more important than absolute fool-proof reliability- I'd rather not make noises at all if they aren't going to sound gorgeous. Granted, I make a lot less noises in public because of that than I would otherwise... actually usually I stick to acoustic, or take big-ass tube amps.

I would welcome any input from anybody on the subject, but the way they build those Brystons they have to be considerably more fail-safe than my Manley tube amps! (also not exactly designed with FOH in mind, but at 440 watts per... and built like tanks...) As my organ tech says, "tubes been on the road for 60 years."

Of the FOH ones you mention, which do you think honestly will compare to really fine studio or home amps? So far I'm not at all sold on solid state power amps, period. None of the ones I've heard, except for maybe a few of the best-sounding Meyer systems, really were particularly pleasurable to listen to. And a one of the newer Meyer systems were none too nice either... this outdoors in a wonderful natural ampitheater.

There's plenty of amplified music in the world, I don't care to contribute to the racket personally unless I can make it a whole lot more pleasant than it usually is. I would love to see what the Brystons are like, and anything else that really sounds exceptionally gorgeous. Any of those you mentioned apply?

I know I must sound like a snob, but hell, those are my priorities and values and I would be the one shelling for and toting the amps in this particular instance, so...

Thanks all for the input, look forward to more.

[Remoteness]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Bryston is making studio amps, not live stuff. I'm sure you could take one to a live gig since power is power but I sure wouldn't.

Amazing amps for FOH? Crown Macrotech's, the higher end EV line (forget the model), Apogee and Crest all make amps that sound good and are reliable, which is probably more important then sound. IMHO, it doesn't matter what the amp sounds like if it dies and lets you down in the middle of a show.

Bryston has been making amplifiers since the 70s. I've owned two Bryston 4Bs since the mid 80s. They sound great and work very well for us. We've used them a few times as a live sound amplifier with no problems. My Brystons never needed service and they're still in use today.

Why wouldn't you take them (use them) to a live gig?
Have you had some trouble with them in the past?

I've never seen them on major tours, so maybe there's a important reason for that. Is the reason technical or economic? They have been great workhorses for decades for us.

[Ted Nightshade]

Another question Steve-
are these Brystons really conservatively rated, or what? The biggest ones do no more than 600w at 8 ohms, but that could be a whole hell of a lot more than many manufacturer's "1200 w", depending on how they are rated...

[Greg Heimbecker]

There's a reason the Brystons carry a 20 yr warranty...

I'd hate to think what a truck full of them would do to your fuel bill touring though!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Remoteness
Why wouldn't you take them (use them) to a live gig?
Have you had some trouble with them in the past?

Power & weight. 600 a side at 8 ohms is nothing if you need to power a rig in a 300 capacity room that was filled. You'd be running the amp flat out all night and it would probably just be loud enough.

Not only that I have to question what would happen if they were run flat out or close to flat out night after night on an FOH rack. Would they overheat and shut down? Maybe...I dunno...but I'd feel better about shoving 6 of them into a rack if they were fan cooled rather then convection cooled.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Power & weight. 600 a side at 8 ohms is nothing if you need to power a rig in a 300 capacity room that was filled. You'd be running the amp flat out all night and it would probably just be loud enough.

Not only that I have to question what would happen if they were run flat out or close to flat out night after night on an FOH rack. Would they overheat and shut down? Maybe...I dunno...but I'd feel better about shoving 6 of them into a rack if they were fan cooled rather then convection cooled.

Weight, well man, they're heavy... not compared to a bunch of other I'd be taking, but yeah...

Power... depends on the efficiency of the speakers, and the SPL desired. We actually played a pretty full 200 capacity room the other night with me singing unamplified, and everybody heard it in the back from what I heard back from folks- noisy ass room with everybody jabbering too. We had a couple little Meyer UPM-1P's for the keys, and a 175 watt bass amp for the keys bass down to low C, neither were even halfway up. Drums had to be played rather carefully and quietly not to make too much noise for the mix, acoustically.

I have a couple JBL Array Series speaks here, good god are they efficient- 15 watts per channel tube into the horns, and the amp inputs have to be attenuated way down... The two of them and some sub with 300 W split to the two woofers, and negligble to the tweeters, would expose those 300 people to as much SPL as I would ever care too, and then some.

So for your gig and cabs, maybe you'd need 6 in a rack- I think I'd be totally set up with 1 4B, another 3B, and something for the subs (usually the way we do it the bass rig covers that stuff). I'd put a fan in the rack, and I'd be amazed if I ever ran the flat out unless I was outdoors.

BTW I had hearing loss for a week after the soundchecks for the other bands in that li'l 200 person room, with as much wet paper towel as I could stuff in my ears. Got to get some musician's earplugs... Man that was painful, not my idea of a good time. They couldn't have had more than a couple hundred watts per side, but I don't doubt that whatever you do Jay sounds a lot better than that did...

[Jay Kahrs]

I'm in a rock & blues room where a typcial crowd is making about 85dB of noise C-weighted without any help from the PA. I try to mix to about 103-105dB spl C-weighted and sometimes end up hitting 108-110 when the band gets really loud.

For me, the extra power is all about headroom. It's about not stressing the rig and having plenty of breathing power at all times. We're running a Meyer rig with Apogee amps...still tweaking & tuning...curse the Omnidrive...I need to get the manual for that freaking thing.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I'm in a rock & blues room where a typcial crowd is making about 85dB of noise C-weighted without any help from the PA. I try to mix to about 103-105dB spl C-weighted and sometimes end up hitting 108-110 when the band gets really loud.

For me, the extra power is all about headroom. It's about not stressing the rig and having plenty of breathing power at all times. We're running a Meyer rig with Apogee amps...still tweaking & tuning...curse the Omnidrive...I need to get the manual for that freaking thing.

Mmm yeah headroom! A fine, fine thing indeed! I'm all for it.

[Frost]

Im an audiophile and touring live sound guy.
I have a lot of experience with the brystons in studio and home use. They are great tho I ended up owning classe amps for my mastering setup.

As for the original question: I see more macrotech amps than anything else. 5000 on the subs and either a 3600 or a 24x12 on the tops. However, more and more Im seeing QSC powerlite stuff. We just replaced two racks of macrotech with powerlite stuff. its a lot more reliable than the crest ca9's we own and sounds better on the top end. The crowns have a little more mid push and seem to sound a little fuller, but for the money and weight savings, the powerlite stuff is great.

Frost

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Frost
Im an audiophile and touring live sound guy.
I have a lot of experience with the brystons in studio and home use. They are great tho I ended up owning classe amps for my mastering setup.

As for the original question: I see more macrotech amps than anything else. 5000 on the subs and either a 3600 or a 24x12 on the tops. However, more and more Im seeing QSC powerlite stuff. We just replaced two racks of macrotech with powerlite stuff. its a lot more reliable than the crest ca9's we own and sounds better on the top end. The crowns have a little more mid push and seem to sound a little fuller, but for the money and weight savings, the powerlite stuff is great.

Frost

How would you compare all these amps you mention strictly for sound quality?

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
How would you compare all these amps you mention strictly for sound quality?

To clarify the question: How significant is the sonic performance gap between the brystons and the various touring amps you mention? From a fanatical perpective, please .

Also, what kind of analog crossovers would you recommend to preserve the best qualities of the amps?

[Frost]

Well, I think that once you get into very high end amps, you start talking less about tone and power and more about the 3d image the amp/speaker combination creates. I think that a crown macrotech has a so-so 3d image created compared to a bryston tho this isnt as important in a live situation. Most live rigs are run mono or almost mono because of where people sit- very few are in the middle where stereo would be effective. There is also too much bleeding from the stage to make any really good image, so for live, tone and headroom become more important. The bryston would win hands down in a 3d imaging competition

As for the tone and headroom of the various amps I own... The macrotech always wins for sheer balls. Its thick and never seems to be missing anything. But they are power pigs and cost a lot and weigh a lot.

My crest amps (lots of CA9 some ca6) can go away for all Im concerned. I like my cheap qsc rmx amps better. The ca9s always feel like they are missing some frequencies, feel underpowered at times, are still heavy and blow up from time to time.

I also own a rack of carver pm700 amps. These sound surprisingly good. We send them out on cheap gigs that just need to be loud. I would use one on a sub any day. Cheap, never fail on me, and have a lot of balls too. I do think they have a bite in the upper mids that the crown and qsc amps dont, but that can help out on monitors, and I dont think they really extend in the high end air area. Great bang for the buck used tho.

The QSC rmx amps sound darn good. Not as thick, not as ballsy, not as much headroom as the crown stuff, but solid amps.

I really like the QSC powerlite 1 or 2 stuff. I dont hear a major difference but the 2 stuff is cheaper. I used one on my martin logans for a few days while a new amp was comming in to the mastering room and it sounded surprisingly good. In a live gig, you wont get as much out of a sub as using a macrotech, but you can get enough. The PL 4.0, 6.0 and up can power any touring rig out there. The smaller stuff (3402 etc) has enough balls and headroom to make me happy on a midsize gig (up to 1500 people). The top seems to extend forever making most systems sound more open and less congested. Some models also take pip cards which is nice for speaker systems that use them. Plenty of headroom.

As for crossovers I use a lot of pip cards and dedicated processors (we own mcpherson and Nexo rigs). Tho I do like the driverack a lot, and the xtc processors that a lot of x-array systems use sound very good. For analog ive never used much besides the ashley and DBX stuff. Both were fine for my purposes.

Hope thats not too long winded.
Frost

[Ted Nightshade]

Actually Frost it's very thorough and I do appreciate it a lot!

Maybe a little more about our specific application could help: We have a lot of concert percussion instruments, vibraphone, great big calfskin bass drums, etc. And a single male opera-strength, if not opera-style vocal. We have been working a lot on one-mic type techniques for those times when we need reinforcement. Also at times we use a very deep keyboard bass, down to low C and that. Usually the bass rig is separate from the PA doing the amplified mic sounds.
So the phrase "sound reinforcement" quite literally applies- the dream would be to get the projection of the acoustic sounds and the amplified version to blend seamlessly, although with the sense of dimension inevitable when both near-mic'ed and distant unamplified sounds are present at once.

If this triggers any more verbiage, I'll be happy to wade through it!
Thanks!

[Ted Nightshade]

You know as far as 3D goes- this is one of the most valuable qualities to me in terms of sound, and one that keeps me totin' tubes. Even, and maybe especially, in mono! I've found fine tube preamps can help a lot, but of course nothing is quite like the tube poweramp.

[Frost]

I think that as far as getting a 3d sound off the stage, this deals mostly with the quality of the speakers, the location of the mains, minimizing stage wash from monitors, and a good sound guy running it. I do a lot of classical reinforcement dates and theater shows where maintaining the image of the stage is very important. Most of our time is spent finding good placement of the mains in order to add to the illusion that the sound isnt amplified.

Frost