choir recording tips

[maestro]

I am recording a 45 member male voice choir in a small church that has a great acoustic. They are singing some pieces a cappella and some accompanied by a 9ft Steinway Grand Piano. This is not a live performance.

I can record simultaneously in 8 channels (though more if needed)

I have the following microphones at my disposal

2 DPA 4006 (Omni Directional)
AEA R88 Stereo Ribbon Mic (can be used in Blumlein or M/S)
Neumann SKM140 Stereo Set Directional with ORTF or Coincident
Rode NT5 Stereo Set Cardioid
1 AKG 414 B-Uls
1 Shure SM81

The only high mic stand I have is 1 Drum Overhead Mic Stand. There are balconies in the church also.

I would like the option of re inforcing the choir or piano just in case there is a balance issue. I would like the lid of the piano to be at least partially open.

All suggestions welcome. Thanks

[Recording David]

As your venue sounds great I would use the DPAs as your main pair, maybe 6 ft up, about 15 ft back and they will capture the choir and the great acoustic (obviously those are starting points for placement). I'd space them around 20" apart (again this is a starting point). And I would spot the piano with the R88.

You shouldn't need any other mics - with choirs it should really be up to them to balance as an ensemble.

[maestro]

Thank you very much for advice

The choir recorded in this venue with another engineer before. The singers balance well as an ensemble. However, sometimes the 9ft piano is rather overpowering as an accompanying instruments (and the pianist is not a particularly heavy player).

What about using the Neumanns SKM140s as re inforcement for the choir against the piano if necessary?

[tenor39]

If you could get some taller stands, I might try the AEA R88 in Blumlein in the center flanked by the 4006's as space omnis to the outside edges of the choir. Where are you located?

[Plush]

To pull it off with verve and panache, you need three tall stands.

May I suggest the following:
Main pair of two Neumann 140's in an ORTF arrangement. This would be on one stand with a stereo bar. Be sure to really dial in to a correct ORTF spacing and angles. Use a protractor and measuring tape to help you. Good starting position is high and right behind the conductor.

The 4006's go on separate tall stands the width of the ensemble.
Do experimentation as to how far out from the ensemble you like the omni's.
The piano is miced in stereo with the AEA ribbon mic.

6 channels, group balances itself and move the piano around in the room until it is far enough away or to the side that it does not intrude.

Classic set-up, classic sound.

[lampmeister]

+1

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by Plush

To pull it off with verve and panache, you need three tall stands.

May I suggest the following:
Main pair of two Neumann 140's in an ORTF arrangement. This would be on one stand with a stereo bar. Be sure to really dial in to a correct ORTF spacing and angles. Use a protractor and measuring tape to help you. Good starting position is high and right behind the conductor.

The 4006's go on separate tall stands the width of the ensemble.
Do experimentation as to how far out from the ensemble you like the omni's.
The piano is miced in stereo with the AEA ribbon mic.

6 channels, group balances itself and move the piano around in the room until it is far enough away or to the side that it does not intrude.

Classic set-up, classic sound.

Coming under the "IMHO", the Neumann's are not a good match for the DPA's. I also think that ORTF for a small ensemble isn't the best way to do it. I'd opt for X/Y (or Blumlein) in the middle and no mic on the piano, since it will probably be in or near the center of the choir. The small stick on the piano should be fine, provided it is near the choir. If the group is tightly assembled you won't need the extra piano mics and the sound will be more coherant.

[maestro]

Thanks for all the great advice. Things look much clearer now. i am in Ireland.

I really want to try the R88 on choir.

I like having the piano fairly close to the choir.

[David Spearritt]

Do what Plush says. We do, although we use an SF24 for the main middle pair, sometimes a Schoeps MK21 main pair, 4006's as described and Coles 4040's on the piano. It results in a beautiful choral sound. It also tames the dread metallic amateur sopranos.

[pkautzsch]

What you might try, if you want the piano close to the choir (I suppose it's for rhythm precision reasons?):
Have the piano between omni pair and choir, lid opening towards the choir so its reflection doesn't hit the omni pair directly. The omni pair will by this become more of a room pair than a main pair and might be spaced rather wide - like 3 to 6 ft maybe.
Then, add four spots for the choir - cardioids or hypers probably - and a piano spot. People often suggest ribbons for piano here on gearslutz, lacking a ribbon mic I've never tried that though, so I won't comment on that. Neumann KM1xx can make the sound very bright though. For choir, I prefer Schoeps most times. Maybe 414s for women and 140s for men? Would be worth an experiment, if there is enough time for such a complicated setup.

The best approach would be, though, to have the piano balance to the choir, and doing it Plush-wise.

[MichaelPatrick]

I frequently use an R88 on choirs in Blumlein and have no regrets. I also like using omnis far left and right for a touch of ambience and to knock open the boxy walls that you can get from a Blumlein. Blumlein makes a really solid image, but it sits in a box and the room doesn't always breathe. A touch of those DPAs will fix that problem beautifully.

I agree that the piano should need no micing. It won't hurt to spot it so you can add a presence if needed.

When mixing ensembles like this I usually dial in some delay to time-align the spot mics to the main. The science can't be precise because of multiple sources and angles -- so I trust my ear and hit the mono button now and then to find some good numbers.

What kind of preamp will you use for the ribbon?

[fifthcircle]

What Plush said....

This is what I usually do for the majority of the choral work I do. What the center pair is depends on the room, but KM140's or CMC64 often are the center as is my SF24 (you could use your R88 here as well) or AKG 426.

If the piano is too loud, tell the pianist to play softer.

This should result is a great choral recording.

--Ben

[maestro]

I will try the R88 for the middle pair. I will put that high on the drum overhead mic stand just behind the conductor. Do the 4006s flanked have to be the same height as the middle pair? I will spot the piano with SKM140s in X//Y.

I like the idea of the piano lid opening towards the choir

If there is a 'bright' aspect to the Neumann SKM140s it could lift the 'darker' sound of the male voice choir i am recording.

Michael do you have any samples of the R88 on choirs in Blumlein? I would love to hear them.

I will be using a Crane Song Spider for all the mics.

Does anyone know how or who records the choral group 'Chanticleer'? I love their sound.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by maestro

do you have any samples of the R88 on choirs in Blumlein?

I tried to upload but it's failing for some reason. I'll try again this evening.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by maestro

I will try the R88 for the middle pair. I will put that high on the drum overhead mic stand just behind the conductor. Do the 4006s flanked have to be the same height as the middle pair? I will spot the piano with SKM140s in X//Y.

I like the idea of the piano lid opening towards the choir

If there is a 'bright' aspect to the Neumann SKM140s it could lift the 'darker' sound of the male voice choir i am recording.

Michael do you have any samples of the R88 on choirs in Blumlein? I would love to hear them.

I will be using a Crane Song Spider for all the mics.

Does anyone know how or who records the choral group 'Chanticleer'? I love their sound.

Best results will be obtained by using the outriggers at the same height. The Neumann's will sound veiled and unbalanced when used with the DPA's on the choir. I also use the Spider for my recordings and there are some examples of what I'm talking about on my website. As with all things, let your ears be your guide! Take time to try different placements and mic combos if you can. Trying to emulate others' work is a good starting place, but just think where we'd be if everyone did it the same. Boring. Who knows, after you post this recording I might be asking you what you did!

[maestro]

The tallest mic stand i have will bring the main pair to about 15 feet, the smallest about 9 feet. Should i set all mic stands at 9 feet? I don't have enough time to get more high stands.

Do you think the Neumanns will sound veiled and unbalanced on the piano? I have Rode Nt5 stereo pair or 1 AKG414 or 1 SM81 as an option for the piano.

I will check out the website.Thanks

Before i had the equipment i had now i once recorded a male voice choir in this church using Neumanns in ORFT (into SPL Gold Mike pre) on the drum overhead stand and a 414 (going into a Manley Voxbox) halfway down the church. I am attaching that a cappella track. Opinions very welcome.

[tenor39]

Do you have access to nosecones for the 4006's? If so, use them with the shorter stands, as it makes the mic a perfect omni. If not, you can still get by with it, but I'd put them farther out and closer to the choir, with a slight toe-in. Try to get the ensemble to arrange themselves to make use of what you have available. Most directors will consider your advice, since they want to sound good, too.

I was comparing the sound of the Neumann's to the DPA's. They are not a good match for use on the choir, IMHO. They should be fine on the piano if you must mic it. I would still try and arrange things so that you don't, as this will yield a more coherant soundfield, with a greater sense of depth and image.

If you can do it, a stereo pair of omni's in the back of the hall will capture the room better. You can add or subtract it in your mixdown.

[maestro]

Yes i have the 4006 stereo set which comes with various nosecones. Which nosecones do you recommend?

Not sure if the ensemble can be arranged in a perfect semi circle but it could be attempted.

I could try putting the piano in front of the choir?

Are you referring to another stereo pair of omni's for the back of the hall or instead of the mics on the flanks? I don't have another stereo pair of omni's. I could use 1 AKG414 and put that in omni for the back of the church?

[tenor39]

Use the bullet shaped nosecones. You can then point the mic's straight up and height won't be as much of an issue. I would locate the piano in front of the choir if they are able to stand higher than floor level. If not, put the lid on the short stick and use a furniture pad or blanket to cover the top of the lid to prevent unwanted reflections.

If you don't have another set of omni's, use the Neumann's or Rode's in ORTF in the back of the hall. It will still give you some room ambience to play with.

[krs]

+1 Plush

I would also be inclined to try the DPAs as a spaced ambient pair further off the choir, this really depends on the space. It's nice a nice option to have, and those mics will kill in that role.

Putting the piano in front of the choir may mean putting it at half stick to control the level, which I dislike doing. Much better to have it wide open, especially if using a ribbon on it , you'll have a lot of high end to make up with the lid down..

I personally wouldn't worry about the choir spots too much.

Let's hear it when it's done

[maestro]

The choir would only be able to stand about 5 inches higher than floor level.

I might try opening the piano lid on the short stick with the choir singing into the strings if that makes any sense.

I have just remembered i have access to a Sennheiser ME66 Supercardioid Stereo Mic that might be of some use.

If i were to invest in another set of omni's at some stage what type would compliment the 4006s and R88? I have read great things about the Sennheiser MKH series. I wouldn't want to buy mics that don't 'blend' with my setup and i suspect i will be recording mostly classical performances. (I know i need to buy proper mic stands for choral first though.)

Have you used the R88 in M/S? Can i use the R88 in Blumlein setup and experiment after the session with M/S? Forgive all the questions. I really appreciate your advice.

[tenor39]

I would turn the piano so it faces open to the mic's. Everything depends on the size of the stage in the room and the size of the piano. 9 ft. Steinway? It may overpower the choir on the big stick depending on the room. As far as purchasing other omni's to compliment yours, it's all about price vs. desired sound. If they will be used strictly for ambience pickup you could get away with just about anything. Another set of DPA's would be a great, if expensive option.

You cannot switch to M/S if you record in Blumlein. I'd stick with Blumlein.

[krs]

Originally Posted by maestro

I might try opening the piano lid on the short stick with the choir singing into the strings if that makes any sense.

tutt

You will have no top end of the piano in the main pair. Hopefully the pianist is sensitive and will be able to balance with the ensemble with the full stick (or try the lid off, seriously!) All the best

[fifthcircle]

Wouldn't use a supercardiod here... If there is one pattern that will have you picking individual voices out from a choir, it is this...

I did a choral recording last night- used 140's and 4006s (with the 50 mm spheres, but still a 4006). I haven't edited or mastered it, but I'll post a sample so you can hear what this setup should sound like. Believe me, you won't hurt with these mics as described earlier. Especially if you have good preamps.

--Ben

[*CISKO*]

Originally Posted by tenor39

If you could get some taller stands, I might try the AEA R88 in Blumlein in the center flanked by the 4006's as space omnis to the outside edges of the choir. Where are you located?

+1 !!!!

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by maestro

do you have any samples of the R88 on choirs in Blumlein? I would love to hear them.

Here's a clip that uses an R88 main in Blumlein. Two omnis were mixed in a little.

http://archetelos.com/uploads/ShenendoahClip.mp3

[maestro]

thanks michaelpatrick. both the skilful recording and performance is very impressive.

I was trying to upload my modest efforts as mp3 earlier but it keeps failing.