Recording acoustic guitar, having a big problem

idrisguitar · 22nd April 2007, 01:01 PM

whenever i record with my acoustic mics (msh-1s from naiant studio) there always a slight hiss in the back ground.

no matter what i do, i turn the levels down, thinking its back ground noise, and cover up my computer to block just about all sound coming from them, yet the hiss does not fade away at all. (or even lower in volume after i do these things)

is it just the mics, and will i never be able to fix it unless i go out and spend £1000 on great acoustic mics, or are the way to remove this hiss, with hardware or software or even anything else like acoustic treatment.

any help is welcome i have a budget and currently this is the priority, but please dont go suggesing new mics as im not going to buy any until i have saved for really high quality ones.

hope you can help

thanks a lot

Idris

Robobo1 · 22nd April 2007, 01:51 PM

Could be self-noise of the mics, pres, or anything else in your chain.

johnwayne · 22nd April 2007, 02:44 PM

I don't know if this is the same noise you're talking about but I got some noise from the refrigerator running. Took me forever to find it. Not that noticeable but with a good pre and mic it is definitely there when recording acoustic instruments.

bishopthomas · 22nd April 2007, 06:30 PM

Use the process of elimination to figure out what it is. Does the noise come from both mics? Both channels of the preamp? Maybe the sound card? Tell us more about your signal path. Start unplugging things and the sound will eventually disappear.

Robobo1 · 22nd April 2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Tell us more about your signal path.

+1.

idrisguitar · 23rd April 2007, 01:05 PM

i know it isn;t surrounding noise, because i lower the volume on the mics so they dont pick up ANYTHING, yet the hiss is still there no matter what, even at that lower volume after recording nothing and playing back.

its the mics, going into a behringer europack ub1202 mixer (cheapo, could be the problem)

into premium rca leads (reall premium quality), into my audiophile 2496.

i know its not the outs either as midi sounds totally clean.

hope you can further help.

will taking my mixer out of the equation and buying a say focusrite track master pre solve the problem? and if this is the recommended thing, how do i input both mics (using a pair) into the preamp if it has only one mic input in. also they need phantom power, which i doubt the trackmnaster provides.

edit: one more thing to add, i get this same noise from my behringher vocal mic, i will test my shure sm57 as well as see again, this means it could very well be the mixer.

bishopthomas · 23rd April 2007, 03:10 PM

The mic:
Try a different one, then a different cable.

The mixer:
It could be the preamp section. Try different channels. It could be the output you're using. Try taking the output from somewhere else (main outs, CR outs, etc). You could even tap the insert point to eliminate a lot of the internal signal path. Plug in your speakers (or headphones) directly to the mixer and monitor via hardware rather than routing back through the software and soundcard.

The cable:
Try a different one. No matter how "premium" (as in rediculously expensive) you think your cable is, all cables can fail.

Sound card:
Try different inputs on this. Still doing it? Maybe it IS your outputs. MIDI (data) is totally different from the audio coming from your computer. Burn a CD of what you have recorded. If it's clean then it almost HAS to be the sound card's outputs.

idrisguitar · 23rd April 2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

The mic:
Try a different one, then a different cable.

The mixer:
It could be the preamp section. Try different channels. It could be the output you're using. Try taking the output from somewhere else (main outs, CR outs, etc). You could even tap the insert point to eliminate a lot of the internal signal path. Plug in your speakers (or headphones) directly to the mixer and monitor via hardware rather than routing back through the software and soundcard.

The cable:
Try a different one. No matter how "premium" (as in rediculously expensive) you think your cable is, all cables can fail.

Sound card:
Try different inputs on this. Still doing it? Maybe it IS your outputs. MIDI (data) is totally different from the audio coming from your computer. Burn a CD of what you have recorded. If it's clean then it almost HAS to be the sound card's outputs.

tried two different mics now with two different cable, nothing changes

tried different channels and i output fromt he soundcard direct to the monitors, still no improvement.

tried different cables from the sound card also

i have rendered a file with the noise and tried it on a different computer, and it is still the same.

i guess this leaves simply the quality of the mixer or inoputs on the soundcard.

any further advice to go from here?

Gear Tramp · 23rd April 2007, 04:00 PM

$5 says it's that piece of Behringer!

Get a decent preamp, son.

idrisguitar · 23rd April 2007, 06:38 PM

as a further test, to totally remove doubt that it is surrounding noise, i plugged my electro guitar into my di box and into the mixer mic channel at the same level as the acoustic mics were, and compared the two audio part, one with recording of guitar (without playing) and one with record mics without any noise. and they both had the EXACT same hissing sound.

im pretty sure its the mixer, i have elimiinated all other possibilities.

so im thinking maybe to get the trackmaster pro, have two questions though

1
but one major question, how do i input both acoustic mics (use a pair) into the preamp as it only has one mic input. Is buying a one xlr to two xlr a valid option or is that not good to do (i mean quality wise) as i think having a dual channel preamp will cost me too much at this moment in time. or would simply the best option be just using one mic.

2
also do external phantom power supplies add noise to the signal chain?, or is it not noticable noise.

hope you can answer my questions again and thanks for all your great help up to now too :)

brubart · 23rd April 2007, 09:54 PM

Here are some suggestions:

Don't combine two mics with a Y cable into one mic input. The mics will load each other down, causing distortion (unless you put 470-ohm 1 percent resistors in series with pin 2 and pin 3 in each leg of the Y). Use one mic in a good spot if you have only one mic input.

An external phantom supply should not add noise unless it is poorly filtered. I've heard very clean, low-cost phantom supplies.

Are the mic input trims on the Behringer turned up as high as possible without clipping? Too-low settings can cause noise.

Listen to the output of your Behringer with headphones. Do you hear the noise there with the input levels turned down? If not, the Behringer is probably clean. I've heard very clean signals from a Behringer mixer. I've also heard very clean signals from some $100 Chinese mics.

Plug a CD player into your Audiophile 2496, set levels and make a recording. If it's clean, the problem is not the 2496.

If the 2496 makes the CD sound noisy, either it's defective or not set up correctly.

Good luck,
brubart

Gear Tramp · 23rd April 2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idrisguitar

how do i input both acoustic mics (use a pair) into the preamp as it only has one mic input. Is buying a one xlr to two xlr a valid option or is that not good to do (i mean quality wise) as i think having a dual channel preamp will cost me too much at this moment in time. or would simply the best option be just using one mic.

Using 1 or 2 mics is a preference. They are different sounds and work in different mixes differently.

Get yourself a decent 2 channel budget preamp.

The M-Audio DMP3 can be had for $160 new / $100 used.

Quote:

do external phantom power supplies add noise to the signal chain?

No, they add phantom power. However, any decent preamp will have phantom power built in. The DMP3 does, for example.

The DMP3 also has 2 Hi-Z instrument DI's.

kedbear · 23rd April 2007, 11:20 PM

get a mackie 1202 VLZ PRO second hand. 4 Good preamps, prefectly adequate to make good recordings if you know what you're doing. There was a guy who made a classical recording with a VLZ PRO desk that sold well. Preamps are clean and quiet. I have one, used to have it going into a 2496 with good results. They're built well, last like tanks if you take care of them. Best 4 channel pre for the cash.

idrisguitar · 24th April 2007, 08:22 AM

i cant seem to get the dmp3 her ein the UK. and the mackie is something i might be interested in, as long as its quiet ill be happy with that.

however finding a two channel mic preamp that is good value will probably be better for me than the mackie mixer.

any other recomendation for great value 2 chann mic pres?

looked at the smpro tb but that doesn;t seem to have the quality of the focus rite single channel.

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22nd April 2007, 01:01 PM	#1
idrisguitar Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Recording acoustic guitar, having a big problem whenever i record with my acoustic mics (msh-1s from naiant studio) there always a slight hiss in the back ground. no matter what i do, i turn the levels down, thinking its back ground noise, and cover up my computer to block just about all sound coming from them, yet the hiss does not fade away at all. (or even lower in volume after i do these things) is it just the mics, and will i never be able to fix it unless i go out and spend £1000 on great acoustic mics, or are the way to remove this hiss, with hardware or software or even anything else like acoustic treatment. any help is welcome i have a budget and currently this is the priority, but please dont go suggesing new mics as im not going to buy any until i have saved for really high quality ones. hope you can help thanks a lot Idris

22nd April 2007, 02:44 PM	#3
johnwayne Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Athens, Ga Posts: 541	I don't know if this is the same noise you're talking about but I got some noise from the refrigerator running. Took me forever to find it. Not that noticeable but with a good pre and mic it is definitely there when recording acoustic instruments. __________________ www.learningguitarnow.com

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22nd April 2007, 01:51 PM	#2
Robobo1 Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 282	Could be self-noise of the mics, pres, or anything else in your chain.

22nd April 2007, 06:30 PM	#4
bishopthomas Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 587	Use the process of elimination to figure out what it is. Does the noise come from both mics? Both channels of the preamp? Maybe the sound card? Tell us more about your signal path. Start unplugging things and the sound will eventually disappear.

23rd April 2007, 01:05 PM	#6
idrisguitar Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	i know it isn;t surrounding noise, because i lower the volume on the mics so they dont pick up ANYTHING, yet the hiss is still there no matter what, even at that lower volume after recording nothing and playing back. its the mics, going into a behringer europack ub1202 mixer (cheapo, could be the problem) into premium rca leads (reall premium quality), into my audiophile 2496. i know its not the outs either as midi sounds totally clean. hope you can further help. will taking my mixer out of the equation and buying a say focusrite track master pre solve the problem? and if this is the recommended thing, how do i input both mics (using a pair) into the preamp if it has only one mic input in. also they need phantom power, which i doubt the trackmnaster provides. edit: one more thing to add, i get this same noise from my behringher vocal mic, i will test my shure sm57 as well as see again, this means it could very well be the mixer.

23rd April 2007, 03:10 PM	#7
bishopthomas Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 587	The mic: Try a different one, then a different cable. The mixer: It could be the preamp section. Try different channels. It could be the output you're using. Try taking the output from somewhere else (main outs, CR outs, etc). You could even tap the insert point to eliminate a lot of the internal signal path. Plug in your speakers (or headphones) directly to the mixer and monitor via hardware rather than routing back through the software and soundcard. The cable: Try a different one. No matter how "premium" (as in rediculously expensive) you think your cable is, all cables can fail. Sound card: Try different inputs on this. Still doing it? Maybe it IS your outputs. MIDI (data) is totally different from the audio coming from your computer. Burn a CD of what you have recorded. If it's clean then it almost HAS to be the sound card's outputs.

23rd April 2007, 04:00 PM	#9
Gear Tramp Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 661	$5 says it's that piece of Behringer! Get a decent preamp, son.

23rd April 2007, 06:38 PM	#10
idrisguitar Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	as a further test, to totally remove doubt that it is surrounding noise, i plugged my electro guitar into my di box and into the mixer mic channel at the same level as the acoustic mics were, and compared the two audio part, one with recording of guitar (without playing) and one with record mics without any noise. and they both had the EXACT same hissing sound. im pretty sure its the mixer, i have elimiinated all other possibilities. so im thinking maybe to get the trackmaster pro, have two questions though 1 but one major question, how do i input both acoustic mics (use a pair) into the preamp as it only has one mic input. Is buying a one xlr to two xlr a valid option or is that not good to do (i mean quality wise) as i think having a dual channel preamp will cost me too much at this moment in time. or would simply the best option be just using one mic. 2 also do external phantom power supplies add noise to the signal chain?, or is it not noticable noise. hope you can answer my questions again and thanks for all your great help up to now too :)

23rd April 2007, 09:54 PM	#11
brubart Gear interested Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19	Here are some suggestions: Don't combine two mics with a Y cable into one mic input. The mics will load each other down, causing distortion (unless you put 470-ohm 1 percent resistors in series with pin 2 and pin 3 in each leg of the Y). Use one mic in a good spot if you have only one mic input. An external phantom supply should not add noise unless it is poorly filtered. I've heard very clean, low-cost phantom supplies. Are the mic input trims on the Behringer turned up as high as possible without clipping? Too-low settings can cause noise. Listen to the output of your Behringer with headphones. Do you hear the noise there with the input levels turned down? If not, the Behringer is probably clean. I've heard very clean signals from a Behringer mixer. I've also heard very clean signals from some $100 Chinese mics. Plug a CD player into your Audiophile 2496, set levels and make a recording. If it's clean, the problem is not the 2496. If the 2496 makes the CD sound noisy, either it's defective or not set up correctly. Good luck, brubart

23rd April 2007, 11:20 PM	#13
kedbear Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 195	get a mackie 1202 VLZ PRO second hand. 4 Good preamps, prefectly adequate to make good recordings if you know what you're doing. There was a guy who made a classical recording with a VLZ PRO desk that sold well. Preamps are clean and quiet. I have one, used to have it going into a 2496 with good results. They're built well, last like tanks if you take care of them. Best 4 channel pre for the cash.

24th April 2007, 08:22 AM	#14
idrisguitar Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	i cant seem to get the dmp3 her ein the UK. and the mackie is something i might be interested in, as long as its quiet ill be happy with that. however finding a two channel mic preamp that is good value will probably be better for me than the mackie mixer. any other recomendation for great value 2 chann mic pres? looked at the smpro tb but that doesn;t seem to have the quality of the focus rite single channel.