Need help with Splitter Snake

[Sam Amato]

I don't have the money to buy the splitter I really want (which would have 32 channels, tranformer iso split, ground lifts). I got a quote for $2,500 for this snake which I think is not a bad price but well out of my budget. I've gone through all the options I can think of and read everything I can find to read on the subject, but I'm still having a hard time deciding what to buy. It looks like I will have to go with no transformers, or ground lifts for now. I figure I can add transformers myself later and use short ground lift XLR's for any problem channels.

I got a price quote of $880 for a custom splitter snake with the following specs:

stage box - 28 XLR-F (no returns)
100 foot fan - 28 XLR-M
10 foot fan - 28 XLR-M
No transformers, no ground lifts
Neutrik connectors, Belden cable

I think this price is pretty good, although still more than I can comfortably afford right now. I'm leaning toward buying this snake but I feel like there might be better options out there. I'd like to buy used but I haven't found anything close enough to what I need so far.

Another thought I had was to buy two of these , one 50ft and one 100ft, then remove the fan from the 50ft and wire it to the box of the 100ft. This would cost $664 and a lot of my time (I'm not the fastest solderer). I don't think the connectors or cable are of the same quality as the above mentioned snake (for $880). Is it worth it to save $216 but risk having an inferior snake?

I know there have been a lot of threads on this topic but I would appreciate anyone's feedback on my specific case.

[bishopthomas]

Spring for the prefabbed at $880. $200 isn't worth your time and frustration in modifying existing cables. Trust me, I've been working on my snake for a couple of months.

Multipin PITA

[Sam Amato]

Thanks bishopthomas. I think you're right. Now I have to make another decision. I got another quote from the same place for the same snake but with "B-series" connectors and cable. This one is $730 which almost meets my budget of $700. I'm not decided yet but I'm leaning toward the "B-series. The connectors are still Neutrik, just a lower series. The cable is not Belden but is decent quality according to the sales guy (who seems knowledgable and honest to me). Although I believe this is a lot of snake for the money, I still would like to find out if there is anything on the used market that would save me even more.

[bishopthomas]

Can you tell us the different models, both connector and cable? That's a pretty good savings, but make sure you're not getting poor quality. Neutrik makes good connectors all around, so maybe it's just a difference of the new XX connectors in black and the X series in silver. Let us know and we can tell you if it's something you should stay away from.

[Sam Amato]

OK, here's what I found out about the connectors and cable. The connectors on the stage box are Neutrik nylon, non-locking connectors made in China. The connectors on the fans are not Neutrik. They are Chinese made "Neutrik clones". I'm told they have more plastic than the ones on the $880 snake but are still "decent". The cable is made in the USA by a company called Carol (or Carroll, or Caroll; I'm not sure). The cable, I'm told, is also "decent".

[Sam Amato]

I'm realizing now that I may need to get transformers on at least 8 channels. This would cost about $19/channel. I will find out tomorrow what brand the transformers are as it is too late today. I realized that since the preamps I'm currently using send phantom to 8 channels at a time, I will run into problems when I put up my room/audience mics which are small diaphram condensers. My plan is to let the FOH console send phantom because most of the FOH engineers I deal with prefer it that way. I would have to send phantom to my condensers which would mean sending phantom to the split also which is a no-no. If I have transformer isolation on those channels it would be OK for both of us to send phantom, right?

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Sam Amato

I'm realizing now that I may need to get transformers on at least 8 channels. This would cost about $19/channel. I will find out tomorrow what brand the transformers are as it is too late today. I realized that since the preamps I'm currently using send phantom to 8 channels at a time, I will run into problems when I put up my room/audience mics which are small diaphram condensers. My plan is to let the FOH console send phantom because most of the FOH engineers I deal with prefer it that way. I would have to send phantom to my condensers which would mean sending phantom to the split also which is a no-no. If I have transformer isolation on those channels it would be OK for both of us to send phantom, right?

One side of the split will be the direct connection, the other side of the split will pass through the transformer. Whoever is on the direct side will have to provide all of the phantom power that is needed because phantom will not go through the transformer.

If you don't have transformers, then both sides are direct. In that case, you just need to make sure that only one source provides phantom to any one channel of the snake. You can both run phantom, but do it on different channels.

Have you looked at these snakes?

Audiopile Pro Audio - Snakes

They are not made with name-brand cable or connectors, but I've used these connectors and they are pretty much identical to Neutriks. No nylon, no "extra plastic", all metal except for the internal strain relief guard, with gold plated pins. I've been building my own cables with them, and they have proven to be completely reliable. However, I have NOT used any of these snakes, so you'll have to go on the photos and the description for the rest of the construction. The service has been excellent from this vendor.

[Sam Amato]

Thanks for your help Gilliland. Your response made me realize that I was not clear about the problem scenario I was trying to explain. You did answer my question though when you said "phantom will not go through the transformer". That is really what I wanted to be sure of.

Most importantly, I want to thank you for directing me to Audiopile Pro Audio - Snakes. The Poor Man's Splitter Snake ( PSX-32S-15-30) is almost perfect for me and the price is right. The only problem is I do not want to be limited by a length of 30 feet. This would probably be fine for most of my gigs but I know there will be times when I need at least 100 feet. Still, I'm strongly considering buying this snake, then either buying or making a 32 channel, 100ft, XLR-F to XLR-M snake to add to it.

The customer service from this company does seem to be very good. Liz was very nice and helpful when I called to see if I can get a custom version of this snake. They can have it made to my specs (100ft) for only about $140 more. The problem is I wouldn't receive the snake until mid or late June which is too long for me to wait. Apparently all of their manufacturing is done in South Korea so orders they take now will take a couple of months to make it to the US and be delivered to their final destinations. Tomorrow I will call again and ask if they can sell me the PSX-32S-15-30 and a 100ft section of 32 pair cable. Then I can just buy my own connectors and make the extension snake myself. In some ways this may be better; I'll have more flexibility and I won't have to carry around more cable than I need.

In case I can't get the 32 pair cable from them, does anyone know where I can get a 70-100ft section for cheap? It's over $5/ft at Markertek! Also, does anyone think this is a bad plan?

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Sam Amato

Thanks for your help Gilliland. Your response made me realize that I was not clear about the problem scenario I was trying to explain. You did answer my question though when you said "phantom will not go through the transformer". That is really what I wanted to be sure of.

Most importantly, I want to thank you for directing me to Audiopile Pro Audio - Snakes. The Poor Man's Splitter Snake ( PSX-32S-15-30) is almost perfect for me and the price is right. The only problem is I do not want to be limited by a length of 30 feet. This would probably be fine for most of my gigs but I know there will be times when I need at least 100 feet. Still, I'm strongly considering buying this snake, then either buying or making a 32 channel, 100ft, XLR-F to XLR-M snake to add to it.

The customer service from this company does seem to be very good. Liz was very nice and helpful when I called to see if I can get a custom version of this snake. They can have it made to my specs (100ft) for only about $140 more. The problem is I wouldn't receive the snake until mid or late June which is too long for me to wait. Apparently all of their manufacturing is done in South Korea so orders they take now will take a couple of months to make it to the US and be delivered to their final destinations. Tomorrow I will call again and ask if they can sell me the PSX-32S-15-30 and a 100ft section of 32 pair cable. Then I can just buy my own connectors and make the extension snake myself. In some ways this may be better; I'll have more flexibility and I won't have to carry around more cable than I need.

I'm glad that my post proved useful. While I certainly can't vouch for all of their products, I've been VERY happy with the price/performance ratio of the Audiopile materials that I have used. I have not used their snakes, but I have used many of their cables (both ready-made and those that I've made from their raw materials), and they've been excellent. I've made quite a few cables from their XLR connectors and their starquad wire. I've also had gotten very good results with their inexpensive active DI box.

If I were buying a snake like this, I think I'd prefer to have it configured so that I wouldn't have to bring the full length with me except when it was needed. Of course, the downside of that is that you have an extra set of XLRs to connect, plus (more importantly) an additional point of failure.

I'm surprised that they don't have a "drop snake" that you could use to extend one side of these splitters, but I don't see one in their catalog. I agree that you should call them to ask about it. If that doesn't pan out, you might want to check eBay. I know that there have been some good drop snakes sold there.

[Sam Amato]

Yeah, I am concerned about the additional point of failure but I think the flexibility that having two snakes offers outweighs this concern.

[bishopthomas]

I am going with multiple snake lengths for my setup. Right now I only have a 75' 19 channel snake with W4 Mass connectors, but I plan on building several 58 channel snakes with Mass, some 50's and some 100's, maybe a 150. This way I can add length if needed but won't have to worry about bringing all that cable for small jobs. I'll actually rent at first, but as I can afford to buy the cable and connectors then I will make them up myself.

[Sam Amato]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one using (or planning to use) extension snakes. Mass connectors are a great way to go. I might go that way also in the future.

[mrufino1]

Audiopile is excellent. I have had great dealings with them. I have 8 channels of their transformer isolated rackmount splitters, at $105 per 4 channels, and they work really well. Those splitters have no cables though, so I have a 15' 8 channel xlr snake and a 3' snake (splitters are in a rack with my preamps) and that works well for what I need. Eventually I'll get 16 channels total. This might work for you because you could have different length snakes depending on the gig. More work to connect but not too bad.

[Sam Amato]

mrufino1, you're splitter system is similar to what I was planning to do originally. I still think the following might be the cheapest way to make a 32 channel, transformer isolated splitter system; although I'm not sure if it would sound good or be very reliable. Here goes:

(4) Art T8's ($150/each=$600)
(4) Hosa 8-Channel TRS-XLR M Snakes ($50/each=$200)
(4) Musician's Friend 10 packs of XLR F - XLR M cables ($50/each=$200)
(1) Jade Audio 24x4, 100ft snake ($300)
(1) Gator GRB 4 space rack bag ($70)

Total = $1,370 (free shipping, no sales tax)

I know the snake is only 28 channels and you'd have to use turnarounds to use all 28, but I was figuring that at least 2 of my inputs would be room/audience mics that would come straight to my rig with no split and if I needed 2 more a couple of things could be double mic'd then run straight to my rig with long individual XLR's.

Obviously, one could substitute many of the items above for others and the rig could be cheaper or more expensive. I don't think you could go any more cheapo than what I've spec'd out above but you could certainly go higher quality.

As I said, this was my original plan. Now that I know about audiopile (thanks to Gilliland), if I were still planning on building my splitter around the Art T8's, I would buy the following:

(4) Art T8's ($150/each=$600)
(2) EWI 16 channel TRS-XLR M snakes ($85/each=$170)
(1) EWI 32 channel XLR F-XLR M (fan-fan), 100ft snake ($340) - this is based on a quote I got from audiopile for a custom snake that would not ship to me until mid to late June 2007.
(1) Gator GRB 4 space rack bag ($70)

Total = $1,220 (~$40 shipping, no sales tax)

This version of the Art T8 splitter system works out to be cheaper and the cabling is higher quality plus there are less points of potential failure.

For me there are two problems with this system:
1) $1,220 is more than I can justify spending on a splitter at this time since I am just starting out in the mobile recording business.
2) I HAVE NO IDEA IF THE ART T8 IS ANY GOOD! They can't be using high quality transformers if the price is so low, can they? Still, maybe it's good enough. My plan was to test them thoroughly as soon as I got them and return them if they are junk.

I know this post is way too long but I writing all this stuff here and reading your responses seems to be the best way for me to sort this out. All of the other audio engineers I work with (I work in an audio post house) are sick of hearing about my splitter snake dilemma.

Even though I've decided not to go with this setup, I'd still like to know what others think of it.

[foldback]

I bought some Horizon 4 channel, rack mount mic splitters for $135 each new. I know the OEM for the transformers and they are very good parts, but, they dont have mu-metal cans, but they do have great isolation, wide bandwidth and good headroom. The single rack space box is made of steel. All the connectors are Neutrik with gold plated pins. Ground lift and attenuator switch per channel. Nice and modular in units of four.

I just use regular mic cables because all the connectors on the splitters are XLR. Steve Remote gave me the idea of just staying simple. I only use 12 channels, but you could certainly use more. I try to use my own mics and only split what I must.

I know Horizon is kind of a loser brand but the splitters I bought are working great. I would never try to split without transformers, you are down on your hands and knees begging for a problem without transformers. It would be easy to upgrade the Horizon boxes later with premium transformers.

Best of luck to you

Mark