piano, flute, celli living room recording

[seedee701]

i'm gathering opinions for the following recording-situation.
piano, flute, violoncello recorded in a livingroom
any thoughts are warmly appreciated.

the music:
2/3 classical
1/3 pop (beatles similar) re-arranged

the room:
2.40 m / 7 ft 9"heigth
6.50 m / 21 ft lenth
4 m / 13 ft width

hard ceilin, hard floor with some carpets
usual furniture


equippement:
8 channels millennia hv-3d
2 channels millennia M-2b

neuman 147
2x u87
4x 184
at4050
2x coles 4038
2x royer121
gt44
4x ksm32
sm91
others could be rented


my basic idea was to use as little as possible:

M/S (omni) 2-3 feet out of the piano (full stick) also serving as main stereo and violoncello spot-mic
plus a spot-mic for flute and maybe another in cardio for violoncello
placing flute & violon-cello to achieve both, correct panning and depth for a nice live/real stereo-panning
flute/piano-lo = right
violon-cello/piano-hi = left

i'll assume that the violoncello would be rather close to the M/S and the flute be quite farther back.

can this be done if the room is less than great?

the aproach of a friend of mine would be to multi-mic everything close and add one or two distant mics for each instrument. then try to create spaciousness with that plus reverbs in the mix.

[RichS]

If the trio regularly plays together (not a pick-up ensemble), they will be extremely adept at balancing themselves. Multiple mic'ing could negate some of that musicality. It's also important to let them sit in the grouping they use in concert.

I'd suggest a simple A/B set-up (fairly close-in) using the royer 121's and one of the Neumann LDC's as a spot on the cello... test to see which one works with that particular instrument. Be easy on the spot when mixing.

I don't think the room size will give you a really usable reverb, even with a distant mic. Your best bet is to go for an "intimate" sound and augment with alti-verb or a hardware reverb.

[fifthcircle]

If your group can balance as an ensemble, a single stereo pair should be fine. The issues in a living room are going to be early reflections- especially floor and ceiling.

The thing is, the more spots you use in the ensemble, the less of an ensemble sound you'll get. You'll get individual sounds that may or may not be good, but you won't have the sound of a trio.

With what you have, I'd probably go for a blumlein pair of the Coles or perhaps Royers. If you want to use something else, perhaps an ortf pair of Schoeps (DPA's would be good too, but if your living room is bright as many are the Schoeps will probably sound a bit better).

I'd probably start with a standard setup- 4-6 feet out, perhaps a bit more and about 6-8 feet up. Angle down towards the players and adjust to get a good ensemble sound.

--Ben

[liuto]

Hi, I think in this small room the piano will maybe overpower the rest of the group. Maybe you want to try out half stick or even closed lid.
I just did a recording (2 violins, contra-guitar, akkordeon and two singers) of viennese music (crossover classical and kind of jazz) in a slightly larger living room. I decided for multimiking this time (figure eight on the singing guitarist - perfect separation!). It is interesting that the sound was not so far from what I did with the same group a few years earlier with a main mic/spots approach in a smaller but much higher room.
Best regards
Hermann

[fifthcircle]

Piano lid position will not affect the volume. It will affect the sound, but only the pianist can control how loud the instrument is. A closed lid will make the piano sound like crap- completely muffled. Half stick isn't much better either. Open the instrument and make it sound the way it is supposed to.

Remember, this is a recording, not a live performance which means you have some flexability in positioning the group. Don't be afraid to have the flute and cello sit out a foot or two from the piano. They'll still be able to see the pianist and the extra distance will help you achieve a good balance on tape.

--Ben

[seedee701]

thank you all for your interresting inputs!

fifthcircle:
regarding early reflections:
would you suggest putting blankets on the floor for a rather dry sound and then adding a good reverb in the mix?
damping the ceiling would probably be better, but i don't know if this is practical.

i assume, that its best to have the trio 'fire' down the long side of the room, correct?

isn't the blumlein going to pick up even more early reflections? (form the rear)

i had very good results with blumlein/coles in bigger spaces. when the sound source is quite mic/preamp-noise become an issue though, even with the millennia.